Sick cichlids! i dont want to lose them

Question
QUESTION: Hello Renee, first off, thank you for your time and concern. I have a 45gal tank with 7 cichlids. it is a community tank, from Yellow lab, Frontaosa, and some others. The other day i though my Regal Blue peacock was finally changing from black to blue cause there was a slight shimmer of sileverish blue on his back half. He was dead 2days later. Now i have noticed that several of my others have the same thing going on. it seems to concentrate on the back half of 3 others. It looks like cloudy silk on them. I just now was watching my strawberry cichlid and he is running on objects and is looking about like the Regal 2 days before he died. I want to treat the tank fast cause i also have 2 pregnant mothers. I just cant figure out if it is a fungus or a parasite? and what is a suggested product to use. i have had luck with melafix for some thing but again have never seen this before! I have done several 25% water changes and added salt to try to kill it and its not going away. Any input or suggestions is so very much appreciated! thank you again!   Jarod

ANSWER: Hi Jarod,

I have a concern that this is a fungus, so salt treatment should help. 3 teaspoons per gallon of marine salt, dissolved in the water.

Heat should be exactly 82 degrees for African Cichlids being treated.  

Improve water conditions, which it sounds like you are doing.  This may have started from poor quality water, and advanced.

Take some water out, put it in a white bowl.  If it's yellow, rather than seethrough, it's got to be changed.  Check the PH of the water immediately, as it will have a lot to do with whether the fish recover.  Africans require specific PH to their environment, 7.2 being optimal.

It does not sound parasitic.  But I without seeing the fish, it would be hard to diagnose.

My advice is to never use Melafix.  It's a worthless product, imo.

I assume your fish now have what their friend had, and so we need to get them treated as a whole tank, rather than in a hospital environment.

Add 3 teaspoons of salt per gallon today.  Increase heat to 82 degrees.  Go to the store and purchase a Formalin product as well.  Anything for Ich should work also, so Ich Away would be a fine product to use.  Treating with salt will take care of bacterial infection and fungal.  Treating with the Ich Away will treat anything parasitic including a protozoan.

It sounds, additionally, as if it could be an ammonia issue.  Have you tested the water?  What are the readings?  Sink some Zeolyte crystals in a net into the filtration system immediately incase it is ammonia-based and the water changes can stop for now.  Please refrain from using tap water.  Use fill-station water from the store instead while this is happening.  The PH is great, hardness is great...it's so much better for them than tap water.

Please take the water to a pet store to test it today if you don't have test strips.  It's imperative.  

Infections such as this begin with bad quality of water, in many instances, or the introduction of a fish or plant or snail that was in a tank infected, without hospitalization first.

Jarod, it sounds like you are on the right path, changing water, salt treatments...but I don't know what doses you gave so far.  

Please feel free to followup with more questions and to send images and/or video.  I am here twice a day to help you.

Renee



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QUESTION: Thank you Renee. I will up the temp 5* to get it to 82. i will also start on the salt. I have tried Tetra Fungus gaurd for the last 3 days and it has done nothing!  It is okay to treat with salt, Ick and Bacteria all at once? i hate to nuke the tank with to many chemicals but im desperate not to lose anymore! Thank you in advance!

ANSWER: I am really glad you emailed back again.  I was just about ready to revise my original answer just a little bit.

Treat with salt for 48 hours.  If you don't see any improvement, I'd like you to try Erythromyacin.  You may treat the tank using both, concurrently, but I'd like to try the proper dose of salt first.

The proper dose for a serious infection or parasite is 3 teaspoons per gallon, but I recommend 2, initially, because some species don't handle salt very well.  Let's go with the 3 teaspoons for this situation, however.

I want you to check your filtration to be certain it is efficiently cleaning the aquarium and run an ammonia test today.  As well as Nitrates/nitrites.  These 3 levels need checked.

I have an image I'd like you to take a look at.  Is this what's going on with your fish?  If so, this is not an illness or bacteria, but this is a typical Ammonia burn, caused by dirty water.

http://forums.waterwolves.com/index.php?showtopic=134669&mode=threaded

It's very hard to diagnose without seeing the fish but you have a very good point in that it's not a good policy to overdose a fish with too many chemicals.

If this isn't what's going on with your fish, add the salt.  Wait 48 hours before adding anything else to the water, raise the temperature to 82 and continue treating with salt, first.

After the 48 hours, you can try Erythromyacin.

If the water tests show any ammonia at all (it should read 0 ppm), then it has to be treated immediately by cleaning water, gravel, and changing the filter media and cleaning out the filter.  If you use a canister filter, you can probably assume it's an ammonia burn, because they are famous for nitrate poisoning and ammonia issues.  That's how they function, but people think that they should be cleaned every 3 months, rather than the montly cleaning they truly need, so they often take bad petstore advice and leave them for three months, thinking they are fine, when inside they are turning into a bad factory of bad bacteria and fungus.  Eventually, this filters back into the aquarium and the fish start suffering.

The fact that it's rubbing on things tells me it's probably not an ammonia issue, but I want to be sure we cover this base before you treat him.  Because if it is ammonia, he will be treatable by just simple cleanliness.

If it's a parasite or fungus, the salt will treat it.  If it's a bacteria the erythromycin will kill it.  

If you have a cell phone, please take a snapshot and upload it and it would be easier to diagnose, of course, when seeing the image of the infection.

And, about your question, after 48 hours, if you must begin Erythromyacin treatment, change out 30% of the water before you do it, turn off all charcoal filtration and decrease lighting.  This will leave 2 teaspoons of salt per gallon alongside the antibiotic.  They can concurrently be used, yes, however I think it's best to change a bit of water first.

Be sure to use a dechlorinator in your tap water if you use tap water, but I don't recommend tap water.  Even wells are treated with Chloramine, which causes very similar skin issues, prior to death.  It takes four to five days for a fish to die with Chloramine poisoning.

I hope to hear back.  I know this is long, but I want to try to give you the expert advice you sought out and make sure we cover all the bases here.

Renee




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Open wound   QUESTION: Okay, i did as you said with the salt and raising temp. Nothing! Its getting worse too. I have done multiple water changes and even tried madel's Copper safe. lady at store said they didnt carry the ick away anymore cause it causes cancer....   I did get some pics though. I believe my big one has rubbed rocks and opened a wound now! strawbeey cichlid still has it on has hind end! Also the lawanda cichlid she is starting to get it on her eyes as seen in the pics. it seems to be on the meat where body meets the tail. Im am ready to try a chemical nuke here! =) just kidding but im getting more worried each day! i cant figure out how to send other pics but this is the bad one!  Thank you so much you have been great help.

Answer
Okay Jarod,

It's what appears to me to be a burn.  It's not improving.  This means water isn't improving for the fish.

No chemical nukes!  lol.

Go to the store and buy Zeolyte Crystals.  Put them in a net, and submerse them in the flow of water . Perhaps out of a filter.

If you're using a canister filter, get it cleaned thoroughly, asap!

Jarod, it's the water causing this.  I can see your water.  Water should have no color.  :(

This either began by an ammonia burn (that's why everyone is getting it in eyes too), or a heater burn.  My diagnosis by viewing your image is Ammonia burn.

The fish has to be isolated in a safe environment with heavier filtration to survive.  The filter being used is not providing clean enough water.

Do you have any way to get a 10 gallon tank and a 20/40 gallon filter to filter it with?  If so, fill it with clean water from a fill station and put the fish in that.  No medication.  No salt.  Nothing yet.  Crystal clear water and perhaps some nice frozen blood worms for him to eat while he recouperates.

Meantime, get your big tank cleaned thoroughly.  Waste is probably in the gravel and it doesn't matter how much you clean it, because it will rise back into the water.  It's time to take it all apart and wash it, reassemble it and put the fish back into it.  There will be a very SMALL cycle if you rinse your gravel in freshwater, cold, rather than boiling it.  The live bacteria will survive this way.

If you have a heater they can get stuck between the tank and wall with, then I suggest making sure it's caged so that fish cannot get behind it.  

I can see water issues in the color of the water, but that may not be the entire culprit.  The fish could very well be getting injured by something in the tank...ie: a hot heater.

I will check email periodically.  I just bought Ich Away at Wal Mart.  

Jarod, I will check email periodically to see if you have responded.  The sooner you get him isolated in a hospital environment (oh, don't forget to heat his tank to 80), the better.

:)

Renee

PS- Here is the stuff - http://www.walmart.com/ip/Wardly-Essentials-Treats-Fungus-External-Parasites-Ick

You can add this to his hospital tank.  Get the copper out of his tank asap.  That's for parasites...he doesn't have parasites.  :)