Pre Packaged Raw Diets

Question
QUESTION: Hello, I've got a couple of questions.

I have a new puppy at home (Pit Bull/Great Pyrenees, five months old) and she has been on a decent food her whole life (Chicken Soup for the Puppy Lovers Soul) and I would like to change her to a full raw diet.

The only problem is I can not do a whole prey model diet. I just don't have the freezer space at this time. I do have a butcher lined up and will be getting chicken necks, chicken wings, whole chickens and other cuts of meat and organs to feed to the pup (named Kaylee) but I will not be doing it as a whole diet, or everyday.

But I do want to do a raw diet so I'm stuck using prepackaged raw.

I was planning on using:

Nature's Variety
http://www.naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?page=1483&-session=naturesvariety:44

Paw Naturaw
http://www.pawnaturaw.com/analyses.html#chicken

Nature's Logic
http://www.natureslogic.com/products/dp_rf_bee.html

I will be switching around between those (not mixing the raw together) and feeding different meats and adding raw eggs with the shells.

I want to know if you believe that this is ok, if these pre packaged raw is a good substitute until I can go full raw. Is there anything I should add? Any supplements you would suggest?

I was planning on using:

Wholelistic Canine Complete
http://www.thewholisticpet.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=5

Organic Green Alternative Herbal Supplement
http://www.animalessentials.com/moreinfo/organicgreen.html

Is this a good idea? Or not? Or do you believe it's not needed?

Basically I any suggestions you might have or helpful tips. I just want to make sure that this will be good for her.

Thanks!

ANSWER: Hi Lindsey,

Good questions; it's obvious you've been doing some homework in the raw diet area. Many people believe that a prey model diet can be accomplished using muscle meat, bone and some organs, but as you are aware this is not a true prey model diet, which strives for balance by using the entire animal.  It's not always feasible to do this; I often see raw diets that appear  balanced if you look only at ingredients, but stop and analyze the nutrient composition and many are seriously unbalanced. That said, it'd possible to feed a very successful raw diet at home using a wide range of meats, RMBs, offal, organs and appropriate supplements, as needed. It sounds to me like this is the direction you'd likely be heading in. And good for you to be aware of the special needs of puppies. Your girl needs more of most nutrients, but there are also dangers associated with going overboard - especially for larger breeds and mixes.
Because your pup is partly a giant breed, and likely to grow to a medium-to- large size, I'm concerned mostly about problems associated with over- nutrition.

The first problem I'm perceiving here involves calcium. While it's true that growing dogs require much more calcium per kilogram of bodyweight than do adults of the same size, you can also contribute to potential skeletal problems if you go beyond their RA (Recommended Allowance). One good size eggshell has about 1800 mgs calcium carbonate, so if the foods you are using already contain adequate levels  for  pups, you've just headed toward overdoing it. Now, without more precise amounts of the foods you plan to use it's impossible to analyze and say whether you are over the mark or not. But I want you to be aware that in the case of calcium and growing large breeds, the biggest danger is usually excess.

Bear that in mind when you're calculating how much to feed. The calcium is very high in the Natures Logic -  the chicken kibble is at 2.23%, and we like about 1.0%   on a DMB (dry matter basis) for growing large breeds. Compare with Innova Large Breed Puppy: http://www.innovapet.com/products/default.asp?panel=na&id=1260

The Nature's Variety is low and the Nature's Logic is very high. Although your dog is not a purebred giant breed, I feel that caution in the mineral intake is prudent.So I would look for a diet that provides correct large breed puppy nutrition - and you can base the numbers on the Innova food. This is the food I feel has done the best job with puppy nutrition. If you are going to use a kibble type food, one that uses DM as the basis for nutrient analysis, these are excellent numbers to strive for. Of course, a home made diet that utilizes a different system of nutrient evaluation will look very different.

If you were to feed the high calcium food on a regular basis and add any more, say in the eggshells you mentioned, I'd be very, very concerned about this pups skeletal development. Bear in mind, that by about eight months, the body starts to be able to excrete excess dietary calcium  and your risk factor is greatly reduced(although we still don't like to see this, as excess calcium can bind the absorption of other minerals, too). My advice is to settle on one food with numbers that fit the needs of a growing dog, and stay on it until at least eight months. Once the vulnerable period has passed, you can consider any of the foods here - I have seen good results with adults on Nature's Variety, as well as Oma's Pride and The Honest Kitchen, but I am not comfortable with adult food for puppies. Particularly since many of the smaller raw food companies are geared to a nutritional philosophy that is somewhat relaxed with regard to nutrient content. I would err on the side of caution for now, and if you need more help finding an appropriate food, let me know.

Bottom line; puppies have unique nutritional needs and large breeds are especially vulnerable to over-mineralization.I'd decide on a good commercial diet geared for the growing dog and don't add any minerals. I generally like to see pups on probiotics, some fish oil,  sometimes Ester-C, but these are not "essentials" and what we use depends on the dog and the diet. I don't add anything that can become problematic if fed in excess, and that means minerals, and fat soluble vitamins.(E, D and preformed A). This is one time when precision is really your bets way to go, and rotating foods with vcariable content, adding eggshell and assorted supplements, is not in the pup's best interest. Later on, they have a much greater tolerance for imbalances, but this first year, you really need to keep it tight.

Let me know if I can help more..and best of luck!
Cat :)

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks a ton for your helpful reply, much appreciated!

Some questions...again :)

Kaylee while being part Pyr. doesn't seem like she is going to get that big. She's only thirty pounds at 5 months, I think the pit took over for the height (any guess on how big she might be?).

But I do want to be careful at this stage and with the Pyr in her, she won't be tiny. I'm so used to figuring out adult dog diets (if you couldn't tell) and not used to puppy diets very much.

I'll lay off the egg shells, but I was only planning on doing that once a week (forgot to mention that). I can still give the eggs though, correct?

Just to give you an idea of how much I was planning on feeding here you go:

For a day with no other meat of eggs added I would be feeding

Nature's Logic-Five Patties

Pawnaturaw-10 Patties

Nature's Variety-18 medallions

Good idea using a dry puppy food to figure out the appropriate levels. Does Orijen Puppy do as good of job as Innova? I ask this because that was the food I planned on using for when I wasn't able to do raw for a day or my parents were watching her. I want to keep her grain free, so that's why I would prefer not to use Innova.

What food would you suggest I keep her on? I've been looking at Oma's and talked to a shelter owner who feeds that to his pups and older dogs. Would that be a good food to go with? It does seem like the best raw formulated food I've seen. Keep in mind if you think it is, I have to order it and will only be able to do that in a few days, so I will need a good raw food to go with till then.

I really want to keep her on raw, and I don't know of any raw puppy formulated food.

So do you believe I should not use the two supplements I mentioned?  What about glucosamine for the joints?

God, ferret raw feeding is so much easier..."here's the mouse/chick/quail/chicken etc. now eat it"

Thanks again, any insight you have is useful and I really appreciate it.


Answer
Hi again Lindsey, and you're most welcome for the reply, I hope my input will prove useful and positive for you and Kaylee.

Now - your questions. If we consider that  ideally, pups should be no more than 50% of adult weight at 6 months, and you aren't overfeeding I'm pretty sure, we can project roughly to 60 - 65 pounds, thereabouts, at a year. Not a giant dog by any means so some of the worry about calcium overkill is mitigated. I'd still like you to watch the minerals overall.

You can definitely give eggs, they are the most biologically available protein source and excellent as part of a balanced diet. And I agree that the barley in Innova is problematic, and that's my main problem with it. As far as Orijen goes, I was using it myself as part of my Ridgeback puppy's first year diet, but I wasn't comfortable with it alone for a variety of reasons.On the days Daniel did get commercial food, I used 2/3 Canidae All Life Stages, with 1/3 Orijen Large Breed Puppy. I have no issues dietarily with rice in the diet, but barley contains gluten and I prefer to avoid it, at least on a regular basis. With Daniel, I did use some Innova; I feel that rotating the commercial diet was a good plan. Danny had about 1/3 commercial and 2/3 homecooked; I am run off my feet with work and have an ailing senior who absolutely has to have home made food, so time is at a premium here.  I did some research into the large breed puppy foods and this combination is what I decided on. For me, it's primarily overuse of gluten that creates the problem - unless, of course, you have a sensitivity. Daniel had a clostridium overgrowth when I brought him home, and had been vaccinated very early, so I have decided to wait until he adulthood before introducing raw foods.

My feeling on the Orijen is the very high protein can be problematic for some dogs; hence I use it as part of the diet only.. With any pup, you need to evaluate him or her as an individual, and some are simply too wound up with so much protein. I've seen iihs reaction in pups behaviourally enough to feel it warrants consideration.

I looked again at Oma's Pride, but I have to say I feel better if a website offers more precise nutrient analysis. Have you considered Embark by The Honest Kitchen? One thing I might suggest is contacting companies by phone or email with questions about the suitability of their products for a puppy. Ask them to convert the Dry Matter content to as-fed so you can see how many milligrams of calcium per day you're feeding. I can do this for you, but it takes a bit of time. Once you have settled on a food I'll do the math if the company won't - but, they should. :)  Embark is a little higher in calcium than Canidae, but you are not going to have an huge dog, so I'm comfortable with it:

http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/embark.shtml

And this food looks even better to me:
http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/thrive.shtml

Just some ideas here.Normally, I design the puppy diet myself so I have total control over what goes in there. This is a good exercise for me as well, in case I am asked to suggest a raw pre-mix for pups in the future.I plan to call some of these companies later and ask for more information, too.


As for the supplements, I'm waffling on the Greens. It has pros and cons, and to be fair, I personally prefer to add individual supplements on an as-needed basis. The things I like about this are the spirulina ,nettle and burdock. All offer distinct health benefits with very low incidence of allergy or intolerance, and I use them myself with many dogs. However, flax isn't my favourite thing. If you want to boost the Omega3 content of the diet, fish body oil (not liver oil) is a far better source. Flax is not easily converted to the Omega3s by the canine, and it can cause itching in some dogs. Garlic is probably not included here at a level high enough to induce anemia, but I dont think it's warranted for a pup. Overall, this formula is not a terrible insofar as it won't upset the nutritional applecart, but I'd prefer to add the spirulina and fish oil separately. Nettle and burdock are good seasonal herbs to use, but may not be needed, either.

The Canine Complete I am going to say no to,  because the first ingredient is kelp, and kelp is high in iodine. iodine is something your puppy doesn't need to OD on if she is eating a balanced diet that already contains plenty. Too much iodine as you probably know, is linked to thyroid disease. One idea is to call the company and ask how much iodine is in the recommended daily serving. I'm not seeing any reason for this supplement for Kaylee. I'd find the diet that works for the time being, until you can move her to a full raw programme, and add only fish oil, perhaps some Ester-C, a probiotic and some green food such as spirulina.

Very long answer and I could go on, but I'd best get to work and let you chew on this for a bit, no pun intended. Always here if you have more questions.
Have fun!
Catherine