Two puppies and Crate Training

Question
QUESTION: Karen
Recently, my husband and I got a 8 week old toy poodle (male) and a 7 week old miniature pinscher (female). We are trying to crate train them, but are having little success. Both puppies are extremely whiny and will whimper and cry until we let them out of the crate. We have tried to let them cry it out, but now they are peeing in the crate as a result. We got these puppies when we were visiting family out of town. While we were away, the crates were in our room and we let them out to pee, but put them back in. We had zero accidents. Now that we are home, the crates are in a room next door to our bedroom. We can hear them whimper, take them out to pee, put them back in the crate, and then hear lots of whining. We come back to check on them an hour later (after the crying has continued for 60 minutes) to find pee in the crate. The poodle seems to be worse in this behavior, although the min pin has had several accidents too.

I have read so many different opinions and books, but it is hard to find the right answer. Some say that peeing in the crate is a result of too big of a crate--I don't believe this to be the cause. Others say this results from allowing them to have water too late and not letting them pee before bed. This too is not the cause. We remove the water two hours before bed. We let them play until they are tired and take them out before we crate them. The only other view on crate peeing that makes sense to me is that they are stressed and are having an accident as a result from the separation. I don't want to "spoil" them by always being there if they are whimpering, but I don't want them to be so stressed that they pee in the crate.

The first few nights we would lay by the crate after we put the poodle back in to allow him to know we were close by as he went back to sleep. Should we still be doing this??

Any advice on crate training, separation anxiety, crate peeing, etc. would be most helpful.

Marie

ANSWER: The only "right" answer is whatever works! However, you have two things going against you. One, you got these puppies at too young an age (eight weeks is borderline), and two, you got two puppies instead of one. I do feel that some smaller (toy) breeds can be harder to housebreak, although I don't think there have ever been any studies on that... just more of an opinion formed from the questions that come in to me. They seem to need to be with their mother and littermates just a little bit longer than other dogs. At this age you *will* be having to get up during the night.

It is correct that too-large a crate may encourage a dog to eliminate in it if he cannot get out in time, and allowing them food and water too late in the evening will make them have to potty, but I have never heard of stress causing a dog to eliminate more (other than stress diarrhea). Many dogs going away from home, for instance, refuse to eliminate in strange places, only being comfortable enough to "relax" in familiar places, and some will go to unhealthy lengths in holding things in.

Basically, it appears that the puppies are telling you when they need to go out, but you are not letting them out in a timely fashion. When loose, puppies this age need to go outside about every 20 minutes or so. Crated, they are good for only a couple hours. They have very little bladder control. (Make sure that the poodle doesn't have a bladder infection when you take them in for their shots.)

Here I do my last feeding around 4:30 PM, and *absolutely* no later than 6 PM if I should be late for some reason (any later and I skip that feeding); water is cut off by 8 PM. They are let out at bedtime, and I watch them to make sure that everyone has eliminated. It is also important to praise them when they eliminate appropriately.

You need to make your crates smaller now that the puppies are in the habit of using them for a toilet (use cardboard boxes in the back), and when one cries let it outside ASAP. Just make sure that it quiets down for an instant before you open the crate door. Never open the crate door when the dog is misbehaving or you will be rewarding it for bad behavior, which will then escalate over time as the puppy works to get its own way.

Be sure you feed your puppies in their crates, as dogs do not like to eliminate where they eat.

No, lying next to the crate just teaches the puppy to be more needy... sort of like letting a toddler keep its pacifier too long. They get to the point where they just cannot function without it. Whatever the behavior... if you don't want to see it when the dog is two years old, don't encourage it now.

Get the paperback book, "How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With", by Rutherford and Neil. It is a great book!

Here are some links that you may have already found:
http://www.ygrr.org/doginfo/behavior-anxiety.html
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_separation_anxiety.html

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1548&aid=157
http://www.inch.com/~dogs/housebreaking.html










---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Karen
Thank you for your response. I have a follow up question to your response. After the puppies are put to bed, we get up when we hear the first sound of whimpering. We let the dog out, it eliminates, and then we put it back in the crate. It is then that he starts to whine and carry on. When my husband checked on him later (just and hour) he had peed...even though we know for sure he had already peed outside the crate.

Do you have any advice on when to know if the whimpering is a needy cry for affection or a cry for using the bathroom?

How long should it take for the puppies to settle down in the crate?

Thanks!

Answer
One thing that really was not clear was whether the puppies were in the same crate, or if they were in separate crates. I don't usually separate my puppies until they are about ten weeks old; before that they seem to need each other's company (that separating-from-mother/littermates-too-early thing). When mine are still together, they go out as a unit, because sure as shootin', if one needs to goes out, the other(s) will be wanting/needing to go, too.

As I mentioned earlier, make sure that the poodle doesn't have a bladder infection. This is pretty young for one, but it *can* happen... and that would explain all the problems you are having. (I once knew someone who had bladder stones in an eight-week-old puppy.)

I would ignore whimpering... actually, mine don't do too much of that as I get after them early on for excess noise (schnauzers, ya know...); they get plenty of attention and play-time off-and-on during the day. But when they need to go out, the noise is quite deafening. There is no mistaking what is wanted. Mine settle down quickly, too; they are worn out by then and more than willing to crate up. Once they are separated, they get a piece of kibble when they are crated, and they are fed in their crates. My dogs all crate up willingly, and are often found in their crates sleeping during the day.

You might consider setting up an exercise pen with a doorless crate at one end for the puppies to sleep in. Have the water near the crate, and newspapers or wee-wee pads at the other end for the puppies to potty on. This might help them learn to potty away from their sleeping area.