Question about my baby mouse

Question
QUESTION: My name is Kim Ramsey.  I found your webpage last night and thought I would ask you a question I have about my mouse.  My husband and I found 3 orphaned baby mice about 2 weeks ago. We right away called our local animal rescue, but they do not take in mice, but they did advise us how to care for them, and also recommended I check the internet for care instructions.  I got online right away and found that a few websites suggested Baby Soy Formula to be the formula of choice.  I have also read that Kitten Milk Replacement can be used to, but I read that the Soy formula is better for them.  So that is what I have been feeding them.  Since we've had them 2 of them have died, but one of them is still with us.  They opened their eyes 1 day after we found them (and I read that opening their eyes meant they were 2 weeks old), so that was 2 weeks ago, so I'm guessing the one we have left is about 4 weeks old now.  He is doing very well and is eating out of a dish and also eating rodent block, and little bits of carrot, and apple. I had tried avocado at first and then later found out that it's not that great for them so I stopped that right away.  Also I gave him a piece of strawberry one day, but he didn't seem to eat a lot of it, so I just do carrots, and apple as treats, and try to have him mostly eat rodent block and then I still offer him formula at least twice a day in a little dish.  he seems to still love the formula.  He's pretty strong and plays a lot and is quite fast, he has gotten used to my husband and myself, he crawls right into our hands when we put them in his tank, and he falls right asleep in my little hand. Our initial plan was to release all three back into the wild at about 6 weeks old, but since the other 2 have died, the rescue center where I live said that it is not the best thing to release just one, so they suggested we keep him now as a pet.   We've had no problems with him until recently.  He seemed to have a little red skin near his cheek or under chin area. I thought it might be that he cleaned himself too much and took of the hair, but I took him to PetSmart (they have a vet office there) and the did a tape test on him for mites.  It came back negative, that was this past Friday.  She told me to keep an eye on it and if it spread then to bring him back.  She said she could treat him with a tiny drop of Ivermectin behind his ear, but he is so tiny only 5 grams that she didn't want it to be too potent for him, so we decided to wait on that.  So anyway, over this past weekend my husband and I noticed that his hair loss became worse, his whole belly/chest area was bald over the weekend, and sunday night I told my hubby if it was worse Monday morning I was taking him back in.  Sure enough Monday morning he had lost the hair on one of his sides as well.  So I took him to the Petsmart vet again, and saw the cheif of staff vet doctor who has seen many mice and exotics over the years.  He said he is so tiny, but he would try to do a scrap test for mites.  He managed to do the scrap test and it came back negative for mites again.  He said that doesn't mean he doesn't have them, he said the hair loss and redness looked like mites to him.  He said he normally treats mites with an injection of ivermectin, but he wasn't sure with him being so small, so he suggested we do a tiny drop of ivermectin behind his ear instead of the injection.  I was so nervous about the ivermectin, I have read horror stories online about the injections killing mice, and being too strong, so I am praying the tiny drop behind the ear instead of the injection won't hurt him at all.  I brought him home last night and already noticed the baldness on his sides getting worse, so far he still has back hair, but I'm afraid that might be gone soon too. This morning he seems to be doing ok, the baldness on the side has spread a little more, but not drastic and so far seems ok and eating well.  They told me about washing all his bedding, cleaning the tanks etc, so I will do that.  They said to bring him in once a week for a total of 4 ivermectin drops.  

My questions for you are as follows:

First - Is ivermectin safe for him (yesterday he had gone from 5 grams on Friday to 8 grams yesterday in weight) I want to be sure the ivermectin is safe.  I did read online that there is a safer way to give ivermection, it is in a topical form that is sprayed on.  I have only read about injections and topical, I haven't read about the drop behind the ear like he got today.  So which is best, drop behind ear, or topical spray??  Or are neither safe.  I'm watching him so closely for signs of side effects.

Secondly - I read that the hair loss could be from a food allergy.  The vet today told me that it is highly unlikely that that is the cause, but I wanted to ask your opinion about that.  Like I said he has tried avocado, but has not had any in about 5 days, and he's tried a piece of strawberry, but it's mostly the rodent block, carrot pieces, apple pieces and the Soy Baby Formula (which I noticed is Iron Fortified - not sure if that is good or not?) He seems to have always done well on the formula and runs for the dish when I put it in his cage.  The vet last Friday suggested I switch to the Kitten milk replacement, but when i offered it to him this past weekend, he drank a little bit, but not a ton, so i went back to the soy.  The vet didn't say soy was bad she had just heard most do the KMR.  I asked the vet today if he could be having a reaction to the formula, and he said it is unlikely since he's been doing fine so far with the soy formula.  Last night I read that sometimes mice can have a reaction to foods and if that is the case to reduce the soy protein that they get.  That made me think, my goodness could this hairloss be that he is allergic to the soy formula?  He should only be drinking formula for a little bit longer as I am in the process of weaning him off formula out of the dish all together.  So I am desperate to know which is better for him, soy baby formula, or KMR.  And could the soy be bothering him all of a sudden?  Not sure if I should try the KMR again just incase it's the soy that's bothering him. Is it bad to switch his formula at 4 weeks, he's been on the soy for just over 2 weeks.  I hope I haven't been feeding him the soy formula and now it's a problem for him, poor little guy :(

Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you so much for your time.

Take care,
Kimberly Ramsey

ANSWER: For starters, you need a real exotic vet.  Petsmart does not employ real board certified exotic vets. Trust me.  He may see exotics but this does not make him an exotic vet.  The mouse is 4 weeks now? With rats we suggest waiting till the rat is at least 3 weeks so this mouse may still be too young for the ivermectin.  I know that I would not use it yet and no other vet I know would either. Does he itch alot?

I am thinking he is getting too much protein. Indeed a diet that is high in protein can cause skin problems and loss of fur.

Skin scrapes are worthless since most mites and lice live off of the rodent and among the bedding.  Never use sprays or powders near the mouse.  Trust me. The vet may have a degree on the wall but I have studied these animals and worked with them on a professional level and am a rat owner, previous mouse owner too so with my hands on experience on top of everything else, I am positive that a diet high in proten will indeed cause the symptoms your little guy is having.
I had a wild rat that lived to be nearly four years old. She was so wonderful. I am glad you saved the little guy and kept him. Usually hand raised rodents should be kept anyhow because once they are hand raised they really wont know how to forage for food and water or seek shelter on their own and they will not know how to hide from predators since they have been taught to trust their number one enemy, which would be humans!   

Rub his bald areas with olive oil.Its ok if he licks it off. It wont hurt a bit.  He may have alot of dry skin that is not helping much with the skin irritation he is having. What brand of rodent blocks are you using? What type of bedding do you have in the tank? Can you buy the soy formula without iron? You can use plain soy milk, its time to get him from the baby formula now anyhow. This is the age he would be getting weaned, around 4 to 5 weeks old.  I would also switch that too.  

Where are you located?

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Sandra ~ Thank you SO much for getting back to me so quickly.  I live in a small town in Northern California, we are pretty desolate here, so my options for exotic vets is very limited.  We have a vet in town that says she is an exotic vet and has seen some mice/rats over the years, so when I asked at Petsmart, the vet I saw is the chief of staff at the vet there, and he says he too is an exotic vet and has treated thousands of mice and rats over the years.  So I'm not sure what to do, the one in my town doesn't have a ton of experience, but has seen them, so it seemed the petsmart vet was my best option, AND I have to drive 45 minutes to take him to the petsmart vet.  We live in a pretty rural area. I do trust your opinon and am so grateful for any information. I'm just kind of stuck  with not many vet choices living so far out.  I did contact an exotic Vet online by the name of Lianne Mcleod at exoticpets.about.com  She told me that the ivermectin in a drop behind the ear should be safe for him, it's the injection that can cause problems, but she said behind the ear is just putting a drop on the skin and it should be fine.  So far he's seems to be doing ok on it, but I'm not sure if I want to chance it next week.  I'll have to see if he gets better or not.  The mouse is 4 1/2 weeks now and is 8 grams.  He does itch a lot, he seems to always be scratching himself.  The information about the scrap is helpful, I did not know that they don't live on the rodent.  The petsmart vet did tell me that the scrap test doesn't give a 100 % accurate diagnosis.  He also told me not to use sprays or powders on/near the mouse, he said they can be pretty toxic for them as well.  I agree that a degree on the wall doesn't mean he's qualified in mice, I know he is trying to be helpful, he even called here today to check on the little guy, which I thought was nice, but I know he's not a mouse specialist.  That is why I thought it would be good for me to look for a mouse specialist online, and that's how I found you :)  I totally respect the hands on experience knowledge and am thankful for the advice.  

So you think it is a diet high in protein.  What do I do to solve this problem.  This morning my husband brought home KMR (kitten milk replacement) formula, but I haven't given it to him yet, not sure if I should switch his formula.  The formula I've been giving him so far is  the brand Emfamil and it is the Prosobee lipil, soy infant formula powder - milk free, lactose free, iron fortified.  1/2 tsp powder to 1 tsp warm water.  Could this soy formula be a problem?  Should I switch to the KMR, does that have less protein??  
We are glad we kept him too, he's so cute, and is getting quite independant.  he still crawls in my hand, but the last few days he's really gotten more independant, and has started to nibble my fingertips (not hard, I think just curious) I will definitley rub his bald areas with olive oil tonight.  The brand of rodent blocks are Kaytee Forti-Diet mouse/rat.  I crush them up a bit with a nut cracker so the pieces are smaller for him to nibble on.  He seems to like them.  As far as bedding, right now I still have him in an aquarium tank, lined with paper towels, so I can easily change the paper towels daily.  I also have torn up t-shirts in there for him to cuddle up to.  I also have a warm water bottle in there, covered with a paper towel and he usually sleeps next to that.  I heard that cedar and pine chips are bad, so I won't get those.  The local feed store said to use CareFresh bedding, so I bought a bag of it, but the feed store said to wait another week or so, since he's so tiny, and then try putting it in there with him.  I read online that CareFresh can carry parasites, and they suggested putting it in the freezer for 48 hours to kill any possible parasites and then let it warm back to room temp before putting it into the tank with him.  But like I said right now I'm still using paper towels and t-shirts. I can not find the soy formula with out the iron, so that's why I'm wondering if I should switch him to the KMR.  I am in the process of weaning him. He only gets offered a little formula in a dish twice a day, first in the morning and then at night.  My plan was to offer it only once a day next week and then after that have him off of it all together.  Should I use plain soy or KMR??  I hope I'm doing things right.  I was SO sad when the first 2 little ones died, it was heartbreaking, I was hoping to save all 3, but atleast I tried.  Now we have this little fella, and I'm trying to do the best possible for him.

Thank you SO much for your time and suggestions.  A few direct questions. . .

- Should I switch his formula then to plain soy milk, or KMR (kitten milk replacement)??

- How do I lower his protein level in his diet, if this is causing the hair loss.  How do I know how much protein to give him or how much he is getting? I read that they like puppy dog food, is that ok?  What is the best diet to do for him right now?

- Should I stop feeding him the carrot pieces and apple pieces too?

- I might just have to stick it out with the petsmart vet, he seems to have the most experience in my area, what do you think??

Thank you for your time, I so much appreciate it.  If I think of any other questions I'll contact you again.  I look forward to hearing your response to the questions listed above.  Again thank you, I really do trust your opinon since you have been working with them for so long.

Take care,
Kimberly Ramsey


ANSWER: How are things going?

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Sandra ~ Things are going much better.  I have changed a few things for him since we've last corresponded.  I have stopped the formula all together.  Also I have stopped feeding him the rodent block because I noticed that the ingredients on the rodent block included crushed peanuts and crushed wheat, so I talked to the vet and we decided to stop the rodent block for now until he gets better and then try to introduce it again later and see if he has a reaction again.  So now I am feeding him white rice, carrot and apple pieces, and dry oats.  The vet also said to give him a few alfalfa pellets too, but I haven't tried that quite yet.  He has also gotten a second drop of the ivermectin and he has 2 more drops to go and then he's done with that.  I've been cleaning his tank twice a day to make sure everything stays clean, while we treat the mites.  So I'm glad to say that he seems to be doing better.  After the first ivermectin drop he was still losing hair, and then I stopped the rodent block and formula and then he got his second drop, and he is doing better.  He had lost all the hair on his tummy and both sides, but I'm happy to say that he is starting to grow hair back on his tummy and a little bit on the sides now.  So something has helped, I'm not sure if It was the mites, or food allergy, but what ever it was, I'm glad he's feeling better.  After the ivermectin treatment and his hair grows back, I'll introduce the rodent block again and see if he starts to scratch again or lose hair, and if he does than I'll know it was the block and I'll stop it again.   

So thanks so much for asking about him.  He is gaining weight.  The first week he was 5g then the next week he was 8g and last week he was 11g.  So he seems to be doing well.  

I'll keep you posted and again THANK YOU for all the advice and for checking on him.  I REALLY appreciate it :)  

Take care,
Kimberly

Answer
all sounds good. I am happy he is gaining weight!  I ALMOST said to refrain from alfalfa because rats cannot digest it, but remembered this is a mouse we are dealing with rather than a rat.

You can feed him vegetables such as peas and carrots (canned and cooked)
and in fact you can check out my website and read up on good diets for rats, which can also apply toward mice as well.

http://www.freewebs.com/crittercity/ratsandahealthydiet.htm