Puppy Growth

Question
QUESTION: Labman,

I appreciate all of your answers.  With a 4 1/2 month old male chocolate lab at home I find myself constantly looking for answers on the internet.

My question is more of a clarification on something you have said a few times regarding puppy growth.   In a recent post you estimated that a 5 month old lab weighing 55 lbs would probably top out at 60-70lbs full grown.  My pup's weight and nutrition have been sort of an obsession with me because when I first picked him up he had worms and wasn't gaining weight(I've since reported the breeder).

I know that it is unpredictable what a puppy should way at a certain age, but my little guy is 41 lbs at 19 weeks and is showing no signs of slowing down.  But based on what you have said previously, my pup would be around 55-60lbs full grown.  Now I did see the father and he was a solid 80-85lbs, and though it probably really means nothing, my little guy's paws are catcher's mitts.  My question is can worms stunt or delay a puppy's growth?  

Also found this research article on puppy growth.  http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2027S
If I'm reading the data right it looks to say that 19 weeks is the average midway point of labrador growth which would put my pup at 80-85lbs.  Just thought it was an interesting study though it is a really small data set.  Thanks



ANSWER: That is an interesting study.  I am always interested in new ideas and I like solid, controlled data.  

A bit of Labman's philosophy:

It is like Aristotle and Galileo.  Aristotle though about it, and declared
heavier objects fall faster then light ones.  For most of the next 2000 years,
educated people knew that.  Then at the dawn of modern science, Galileo lugged
the large and small balls up the the tower of Pisa, and dropped them off.  They
hadn't read Aristotle, and both hit the ground at the same time.  I am afraid
the dog world is full of thinkers.  Most of my answers are based on my own
results trying what I have been taught by the best there is.

Perhaps I have answered my questions in the wrong order tonight.  I just told somebody else there is no telling how big their puppy will get.  Maybe I will go back and give him your link.  

I am sure you have seen this link, http://www.longliveyourdog.com/twoplus/RateYourDog.aspx

Your link also touches on obesity creating big problems for large breed puppies.  

Oh yes, your question.  Sometimes I get better answers out of my personal vet than the dog guide school and more hows and whys.  He says the sparse diet, that both he and the school urge, won't affect the dog's adult size, only delay reaching it.  By the way, he isn't just one more local vet, but a nationally known joint specialist with people bringing their dogs in from all over the country.  Over the years, i have seen a lot of him, and I often catch him on a slow day when we have time to chat.  When I complain to the dog guide school about always getting runts, they say, yeah, people want smaller dogs.  From what I know, the worms shouldn't reduce his adult size.  He may have to make up for early slow growth by continuing to grow more later.

I am afraid I disagree with the philosophy behind that study.  I have several good sources telling me to keep Lab and the large breed puppies lean and make the early switch to adult chow.  On one side is my vet that sees many dogs with problems.  On the other are the dog guide school and other schools with thousands of problem free dogs.  I find the evidence overwhelming that large breed puppies need to be kept lean and be on adult chow early.  

What I suggest is that you get him on an adult chow now, and keep him lean.  As for how big, Que sera, que sera.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Labman,

What you are doing is what is needed the most.  There are too many "experts" out there who only work in theory - you are providing real life experience which is the most helpful.  Before I brought my pup home, I read just about every book out there and it's amazing how many different opinions there are on just about every subject of raising a puppy.  

And because I was so worried about my puppy's weight I did a lot of digging and that's where I came up with this research article.  It's the first one I have seen that uses actual real data points though I believe the sample set is too small.  I think it was like 21 females and 16 male labs they used: But it does track closely with the AKC standards of 65 lbs for grown labs.    

On another note, I just had him neutered last week. I wanted to wait until after 6 months but he ended up with an impacted dead baby tooth that was really hurting him.  So the vet suggested that we extract the tooth and that we neuter him while he was down.  Is 4.5 months too early to neuter?  Also his behavior has changed for the worse though that could be that he has been cooped up since the surgery last week.  Poor little guy is on medication, can't run or jump or be a puppy because of the stitches and is losing teeth right and left...  

Thanks - Steve

Answer
Like everything else, opinions vary on when to neuter.  I think the current trend is to earlier and earlier spay/neutering.  I have known of it being done as early as 6 weeks.  I don't think it will make a big difference doing it then.  

Sometimes some of the things I read leaves me wondering if whoever wrote it even owns a dog.  Part of it is the great verity of dogs.  We have looked good the last 8 years with a string of fairly easy puppies.  Our 6 month old female, yellow Lab Xanthe, is a hellion.  In other cases, people are repeating what they have read.  Even in a lifetime, no one person can have enough experience to really know dogs.  We all must depend on the word of others.  I look at the resources and the successful program of the dog guide school, and other similar programs and feel quite confident about their methods.  Having been part of the program since 1991, I have seen many changes.  At first I was upset they were no longer doing things the right way I was first taught.  Then I asked myself, ''Do I want to be part of a program that hasn't learned anything in the last 10 years and is still doing things the same way they were 20 years ago?''.  Some of the stuff, they try, and then go back to the old way.  

Some people have no respect for a study like the one in your link, or even the large, careful study behind my link on controlling weight.  I have recently largely given up posting to one forum type site.  I am tired of arguing with idiots.