Copper Safe and Maracyn

Question
Chris -

Thank you so much for your quick turn-around on my questions!  It seems everyone I talk to has different advice for what to do with my tank, usually followed by a list of products to purchase ... I really appreciate your more natural approach.  Some answers to your questions/comments and a few follow-up questions:
1) The Copper Safe and Maracyn just went into the trash ... they were headed there anyway, your advice just helped me confirm my suspicions.
2) We have been doing occasional water changes, using a Python to clean the gravel when we do.  Although we only feed every other day, and it seems that we are being pretty stingy with the food, the Python still picks up quite a lot.  Does that mean that we are still feeding too heavily?  Regarding the water changes, we use reverse-osmosis water vs. tap.  In South Minneapolis, we have city water that is treated ... using the RO water, it seems we spend a lot of time adding things back to the water that are already there with the tap water (kH specifically).  Do you have a recommendation on which water to use?
3) Melafix had been recommended by the same person that recommended the CopperSafe, so we were a bit skeptical about it.  Thanks for the endorsement.  We'll give it a try.
4) We run three filters: a Rena canister, a Magnum w/diatom earth, and two power heads on an under-gravel filter.  The Rena and Magnum get changed about once each week (right now more frequently to attempt to clear up the water), but a little less than that when the tank seems to be more stable.
5) The tank has been in place since April 2004.  We have had as many as 60 community fish in it, and typically add a school at a time (10-12 of a type of fish).  Due to the illness, we seem to have about 20 hardy fish that have fought through all of our challenges, but the tank feels somewhat empty with that level of fish.  The largest is our gold gourami, which max out at 4-5 inches.  How many fish can we introduce safely at one time?

Thanks again for your help and advice.  I really appreciate it!
Sincerely -
Ken.

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Followup To
Question -
In my 90-gallon tank, I have had issues with ich twice.  First time I used Rid-Ich, which turned everything blue.  Once that was done, the fish started getting body fungus, which I treated with Maracyn.  The Maracyn turned the water cloudy and it started to smell awful.  The second time ich reared it's ugly head, I used Copper Safe and quickly added the Maracyn - which is what Mardel seems to be recommending in their Fish Disease Guide.  Copper Safe left the water clear, and appeared to get rid of most of the ich, but not all, and when I added the Maracyn again, the water turned cloudy white and very smelly again.  In the meantime, I have had all my plecos, celebes rainbows, and clown loaches die, and even after the Maracyn treatment the fish continue to have cloudy eyes and some body fungus.  

My ph could be higher and my ammonia should be a little lower, but they seem to be pretty good, and my nitrates/nitrites are nonexistent ... are the ph/ammonia the source of all my problems?  What do you recommend?
Answer -
Hi Ken;

Ammonia will cause the symptoms you have described. It burns their eyes skin and gills, as well as leaving them vulnerable to parasites, bacterial infection and fungus. Adding medications can make it worse by stressing the fish and some meds will burn their skin further. Medications can also kill some of the beneficial bacteria in your filter system. I know Maracyn says it doesn't do that, but in my experience it does!

An established tank should have no detectable ammonia whatsoever. Is there excess waste in the tank? Stir up the gravel a bit. Does any crud come up? If so, it is from overfeeding. Cut back on how much food goes in. The fish should finish all the food in the tank within 5 minutes. If any food is left on the decorations or the bottom of the tank then too much is being fed. Cut back by 1/3 and try again the next day. Feed only once per day. Many successful hobbyists feed their fish every other day. This encourages foraging and no food is leftover to cause pollution in the tank at all.

To fix the problem that exists now, you need to make a 25% water change daily (while vacuuming the gravel) for a week to help get the water chemistry straightened out again. This will slowly change the pH to a more normal level and the ammonia will get lower too. As the excess waste is vacuumed out it should become normal again and you can to a normal maintenance cleaning. Do normal maintenance once every week to two weeks. The tank may still be cloudy, but if the fish are healthier then the worst is over. Keep at it and it should clear up in a couple of weeks.

To eliminate the ich, use a natural method that saves stress on the fish. Stop using Maracyn and CopperSafe. Raise the temperature of the water slowly to 82 degrees and also add aquarium salt. You will need one teaspoon of aquarium salt per gallon of tank water. Any "Pure Salt" will work just fine. With a tank the size of yours, the aquarium salt from the fish store will be a bit expensive. Read the label of the salt you choose to be sure there are no other additives whatsoever. I like uniodized rock salt that is often used for ice cream makers. I get it at the grocery store. You will need to add salt to the fresh water you add when making water changes too. Only add enough salt for the water replaced. Not for the whole tank. Otherwise you will have to start shopping for salt water fish in a few days! Yikes! Ich hates salt and hates heat. Keep the temperature raised for 2 weeks to get all the parasites killed.

There is a mild natural remedy you can use along with the heat, salt, and water changes that will help the fish heal. It is called "Melafix". There is a size available for use in ponds that might be more economical for your 90 gallon. It is exactly the same product as the one labeled for aquariums, just a larger bottle. Melafix is a soothing extract that doesn't burn the fish like traditional medicines can. It helps their skin and fins to heal. Great product to have on hand. It inhibits and sometimes cures infection too.

Just out of curiosity, how often does the filter get changed?
How long has the tank been set up?

Followups welcome

At Your Service;
Chris Robbins

Come on over and join us on the freshwater fish forum at About.com to get even more information too;
http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/questionsanswers/a/naavigateforum.htm

My member name is ChrisR62. See You There!  

Answer
Hi Ken;

I overfeed from time to time too. It's the only way that too much waste gets in the bottom of the tank. We gotta put there and we do it quite willingly sometimes! LOL! Cut back and see how it goes. You might even examine the types of food you feed. Maybe the fish aren't digesting it all.

I have a python unit too. I LOVE it! I had a long hose like that rigged up at the store 20 years ago with my gravel vac before pythons were even available. Got tired of hauling 5 gallon buckets full of water for 30 tanks.

One thing that might be contributing to the cloudiness and ammonia is changing the filters too often. Canister filters like the Rena and the Magnum should be changed no more often than every couple of months. My Fluval canister has been running for 6 months and it is just now slowing to the point that it needs cleaning. Every time they are cleaned it removes the beneficial bacteria colonies that keep the water clear and the ammonia and nitrite levels under control. I will rinse the media in a container of tank water to avoid killing any more of the bacteria than necessary. Chlorinated water kills too much of it. Only replace the media that cannot be rinsed, such as ammonia granules or carbon.

You may not have to waste money on RO water if you can use your tap water instead. Simply use a product like Stress Coat, NovAqua, Prime, etc. They remove chloramine, chlorine, metals and provide stress relief. It is probably less expensive than replacing minerals to the RO water. If you are still worried about it you can run your diatom filter with a fresh charge of powder for an hour or two after a water change and it will help too.

Diatom filters should only be used once in awhile though. It polishes the water, removing microscopic waste, algae, and dyes. They remove too many things to be good for the fish as a full time filter. I used mine to remove medication or when the tanks were being cleaned. It picked up the crud floating around and cleared the tanks up. If you have the carbon filter insert and foam sleeve use that in the magnum for full time use.

I usually recommend adding no more than one inch of fish for every ten gallons at a time. Wait a week or two and add more until your tank is at it's desired population. The maximum full population for any tank of small community fish is one inch per gallon of water. For thicker bodied fish that get 6" or larger, they need at least 2 gallons for every inch, sometimes a lot more. Some examples of these biggies are Clown loaches, oscars, goldfish, koi, bala sharks. Be sure to calculate based on adult size. They make big wastes and need more room to move. Imagine trying to keep a 10" oscar in a 10 gallon tank based on the one inch per gallon rule. Yikes!

More followups welcome

At Your Service;
Chris Robbins