bouyancy, popeye & constipation

Question
QUESTION: I am in an emergency with a beloved 3 yr old goldfish. He is in a hospital tank treated with Marcyn for 2-3 days.  He is active and full of fight to get up, but he can't maintain himself upright unless I keep the water level extremely low.  I am monitoring him day and night to refill the water, keep it clean, and him calm.  He will fall on his side if she stops swimming, and sometimes swims in circles quickly so that he wont fall over.  He does not appear swollen, except that his belly, when he flips over in STRONG attempts to be upright shows evidence of being impacted..he has not pooped in over 2 days and has stopped eating according ly.  He is not interested in the peas or anthing, I'm presuming because of the constipation.  He had popeye, but that seems to be diminishing with the medicine, I don't think I'm just gtting used to it. It was absolutely horrible looking and now it's just horrible looking, if you know what I mean.  I put the air stone in , but sometmes it scares him and begins of fit of flipping.  He had sores on his sides, that seem to be getting better as well.

The main thing is how incredibly active he is and how badly he wants to swim normally.  I feel so horrible for him, but I'm thiking of epson bath. The frustrating thing is that when i call different fish/pet stores, and peruse the internet, the advice is so contradictory.  I do't want to do the wrong thing.  I do have epson salt at home, and I just know he needs relief from the constipation.  

These things are complicated, and his symptoms and behavior are  very unusual from everyone I've spoken with or read.  I'm exhausted from staying up3 nights with him, so I apologize for the disorderliness of this question.  Please ask me anything that will help clarify the situation.

I have epson salts here, but there is a eucyptus fragrace (not oil) in them.  I'm disabled and not able to gt anywhere until tomorrow afternoon, so I do't know which is worse, trying to dilute out the fragrance, or wait 15 hours ??

So to recap:  no major bloating, no fungus, no fin rot...very very active, responsive, popeye, wounds (red) that are healing (first symptom perhaps injury from rubbig rocks) , he was a single fish in a 20 gal tank, one black mark has appeared on belly since being in hospital tank,  I do think the popeye is better, certainly not worse

thank you (this is going on a week)

ANSWER: Elizabeth,     You have a couple problems here. Do not use the Epsom salts with fragrance. If your salt is non-iodized you can use that but if it is iodized do not use it. The fish you have needs big water. Start saving for bigger tank. These fish are great but dirty. I imagine you are siphoning your tank when you clean. Did you add a rock or anything from outside to your tank? The rubbing is a definite sign of parasites. Tomorrow get coppersafe it is cheap and my favorite. It is mineral based and will not come out of your water till you change it. Popeye is almost always caused by poor water quality water. You have a fish that takes alot of work but, gives alot of love back. Keep trying to feed him the peas to relieve the constipation. All you can do right now is make sure he has enough air in the hospital tank since he is so big. If he is gasping you need to throw an airstone in there with him. Medicate the home tank with coppersafe and the tank he is in . You will not have to take your carbon out with the coppersafe and it can be used in conjunction with medication. He needs to be absorbing as much medicine as he can right now. When you get him back into the home tank. make sure you give him a slice of orange every week. thin slice from half and the peas twice a week. Crack the shells then remove them later. Watch how much you are feeding. I know they act like they are starving all the time. That's just them training you. Make sure while he is in such a small tank you water change every week or other week at least 30 to 40 %. You did everything correctly so just hang in there unfortunately its nature's turn sweety. I hope the best. If you have any other questions or think you may have forgotten something I am right here for awhile. I understand how close you can get to your goldie. Just ask k. Good Luck, Tina

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Tina,
Thank you so much for your reply and for being willing to help us..I can tell how much you understand my love for this guy. I was so exhausted when I wrote you a couple hours ago, that I did leave some things out, and wasn't as clear as I could have been.  I appreciate your willingness to get thru my letter written in my own state of extended stress.  I feel I'd better clarify some things to be certain you have the correct info to go on for my next step:
firstly, I am really attached to him. he wasn't intended as a pet (sorry!) but was actually a feeder intended for my turtle I'd rescued, so I didn't go into this with preparation.  I was told he'd live 5 days (the turtle went into hibernation), but of course,we know way better now. With this as my only expectation, he has been a constant source of inspiration and strength to me, especially with my own healing from a bad car accident.  Just seeing him every day happy and strong, reaching his 3rd year in sept..he means a great deal to me.  Even now, he is so uncomfortable yet he fights all day and night for his vitality.  He just wants to swim and play, his personality is exactly the same.  

SO!  I was a bit wrong..I have been giving him the marcyn 5 days, this is supposedly the last day, as it is meant to be a 5 day treatment. i wasn't sure if I should continue since now i can tell that the popeye is diminished I'd say 75%.  That eye has dark red behind it still, but is almost even in size with the other eye.  It's hard to see it because he's usually moving quickly, or resting on that side down.
This is how it began:
Actually his tank is pretty big..I think 38 gal, I can send yo a pic to help. It takes up most of my desk.  I have always had the same large rocks (his whole life with me 3+ years) in there and live plants.  I would change the rocks often to vary his 'terrain' and he loved that, he loved when I would rearrange it and he loved when I cleaned the tank, reentering into a different scenario.  I always felt it was a main reason he lived so long.  About 1 1/2 weeks ago?? he was swimming fast and I knew i had to get an even bigger tank for him. I felt he needed a pool!  he's so athletic and such a character.  Like when I feed him his game is to swim fast and knock the flakes down and eat them as they float down or are on the bottom.  He makes games out of most of his activities. Plays with bubbles, etc.  

Anyway, I actually heard him swim into the rock last week, so of course i removed them from the tank.  The next day I saw a wound, a bruise that came thru to the scales, it looked like, and it was red.  So I got the stress coat. He was swimming, eating, pooping, everything the same.  He then began to want to swim around the top. He was not floating. He was swimming, in his typical athletic way, but I felt while watching him all day for a day or so that he was not in distress. It seemed to be a choice because he had this big tank with nothing in it for the first time in his life. there was nothing to do but swim around and go towards the top, for fun, it appeared.  He would also swim on the bottom, in the middle, etc.  he was definitely not floating, bloated or in distress.  it was unusual, and i asked many experts about it, but all concluded no concern.  He wasn't wavering, falling on his side, just swimming around towards the top of the water laterally.  He couldn't do this before, because of the rocks and plants.

about 2 days later, it looked like the worser side of the 'wound' was better and the other side that had looked bruised had gotten worse looking to me..the redness nearer to surface.  I went to a pet store for advice and was suggested 'Quick cure'.

When i got home to give it to him...here's what i saw..
He was literally straight upside down vertical spinning out of control like a cyclone.  It was the scariest thing I'd ever seen.. the poor thing!! how long he had been like that, I don't know.
Quickly, I thought to dunk the smaller tub he goes into when I clean his tank and scoop him into that. It would be smaller and shallow so he could stop that horrific position and also he really likes being in that little tub.  It's 2nd home for him, and he's relaxed in there.
That worked!! the spinning stopped and he was able to calm down.
That is when I saw his eye.

THat is when the 'popeye' occurred.  I've wondered whether it may have been brought on by the blood pressure change that must have occurred being upside down spinning like that. and terrified.

I really don't know what happened since I was at the fish store when this happened.  If I had to guess, I suspect a sudden inflammation occurred, setting him off balance,and he fought it so hard, that it set him into a spin. He fought to get out of it and was tipped one way so he couldn't get out of it and any struggle he made just made him spin faster in the same direction.  omg it was horrendous, really.  I don't know how anything could take that.

I put him in the quick cure with some aquarium salt, because that's what was advised, in his smaller 10 gal tank, and stayed up with him the whole night because he was fighting so hard to be upright, he would just flip and flip, it was awful. finally he just lay limp with his head and tail hanging down like a 'u' for hours.  I just stayed up, talking to him..trying to help him be calm and let the medicine work.

After that, in the morning, I decided this was too horrible, and I couldn't imagine that the stress this brought on would not be detrimental to his healing. I made the decision to put him back in his little tub, with a small amount of water and make that his hospital tank.  He perked up soon after that.  In a little bit of water, he could swim upright and also slow down and relax somewhat.  He still ate, but stopped going to the bathroom.  

I went back to the store, and was told they'd made a mistake, not to use the quick cure and would reimburse me.  THey sold me the marcyn and I began that last sun nite.  I have been changing the  water each day several times (b/c it's not much volume) adding the mix from the 10 gal tank and using the airstone.  so he's always in the same water, temp, etc, just fresh.

So  he's been constipated close to a week, and hasn't had any interest in any food for a few days, i've tried the peas..but nothing.  His eye and sores are better, but his stomach is so tight and there is a black spot on his belly that I really can't get a clear look at, but I don't know if he may have hit the airstone in one of his spin outs, or it's bacteria/infection/ etc..at first i thought it was some food stuck to him, it looks kinda like that. (but it isn't)

poor thing..his personality is the same..he doesn't 'act' sickly..just can't get himself to stay upright in the water for long.  he's almost constantly moving, turning in circles or swimming, he rests on his side when he gets tired from working to keep himself up.

So, here's the last point i can think of. I'm sorry for this, and I don't want to seem contradictory, but after i wrote you, I checked my notes and realized he'd been in the marycn 5 days.  I pondered a long time, but decided to throw out that medicated water and just use the stress coat.  everything i read said aquatic salt was detrimental to the bloating and he'd been in that as advised by the 3 pet stores I consulted.  I considered extending the marcyn, but while it has helped the eye and wounds, it seems, it isn't doing a thing for his swim bladder/bouyancy issues.  I figured I may go to the marcyn plus, which is what that company recommended.

he looked like he was suffering so much, and I hadn't heard from you.  i went thru everything i could on the internet, including this site and it all pointed to the epsom salt.  So i decided to just do it.  I hadn't gotten your letter, so please don't feel I went against your advice.  I just felt he was really suffering, he couldn't keep himself up at all and seemed to be ..well..i just had to make a judgement call.

I diluted 1/8 tsp in about a gallon and i let it sit for hours (I'd done this prior) to let the fragrance get out.  I added some fresh water to it, just in case and aerated it with the airstone..and believe me this was scary scary for me, because i understood there was some risk, but he was so helpless on his side and couldn't get up yet kept trying all his might.  He just had to have some relief.

So, I watched him for 5..10..all the way up to 30. after the first 5 he looked relieved.  I know this fish very very well, because i am home most of the day with him, in the same room.  He lay on his side and seemed to be absorbing it.  he then began to swim  in the solution.  My plan was just 10 min, but it seemed beneficial and i would extend it 5 and 5 etc.  I put him in the 10 gal after that and he was sort of swimming but couldn't get it, I let him soak up the fresh water with the airstone for about 5 or 10 minutes, but he then seemed so tired from not being able to really swim.  I also kept him in that bec. it gave me a good chance to really look at him. he was moving around so much, it was kinda hard, but i could tell that his fins and tail were in great condition and that he had some wear on him from the turning around/flipping, i think maybe from the airstone, which I just can't leave in unattended.  His eye is better, and the one side is extremely well healed, just a light pink not at all red or alarming.  

Back in his little tub now, he is much much better than before the epsom bath i gave him.  It's been  a couple hours now and each time i peek in, he is upright, swimming around slowly, not racing like before, or flipping, or limp.  It has helped him, at least for tonight.  He is much calmed down.  i did't have that much salt in there, I don't think.  I just really went on gut instinct based on his behavior.  Unfortunately, it has not made him poop, but when he was in the 10 gal, i saw an air bubble 'burp' come from his mouth, which I was happy about.

If you have gotten through this long treatise, I really thank you and applaud your dedication to our precious marine life.  Thank you so much for understanding.  I know there are a few things going on here, I just want to make sure you have all the info to be sure which meds i need.  I'm just worried how to relieve his constipation so he will eat again. And of course relieve the pressure so he can be upright in the water.

thank you so much again...I will be able to get to the store tomorrow.  Do you think I should buy the regular epsom salts and repeat this since he liked it?

And is the coppersafe to be used alone? should i use the stress coat or anything else in there?  and is the coppersafe instead of the marcyn products?

That's it..thank you again..I know this is long, but I have really been up this whole week with him all night and it's been grueling for me, too.  It's almost 4am now,

have a great weekend, thank you so much

ANSWER: Elizabeth,      The it is not any parasite sounds like your baby is just very active and just bumped his knee. The fact that they gave you quick cure for a wound is bad but , it has been reconciled now. Do not do any water changes while the water is medicated and if you do, return the amount of medicine.....you can estimate. The salt is great you can keep that in the tank regularly. You can use a therapeutic dose a teaspoon per ten gallons always , just remember this is a mineral and does not evaporate. Therefore can only be removed by water changes. Same as the medicine estimate how much water you have removed and add more salt. Coppersafe can be used in conjunction with your medications. Remember to remove your carbon for the medication. The coppersafe you can leave it in. As long as you haven't added something new to your tank like a pretty stone from outside or gosh forbid a seashell or something the chances of a parasite being introduced to your tank is minimal.So lets not over medicate him since you are using the salt. Salt is also a natural antiparasitic. You are doing great!! Raise the temp in your tank if you have a heater if not its o.k. it just helps them absorb the medicine faster. The strong salt baths are great 1 teaspoon per gallon for no more than 3 to 5 minutes.......I am glad they are helping. The big burp is a good sign things are moving .....wait on the peas now till we get over the worse. I would recommend you get a couple of cory's to help keep that food off the bottom. They are not temperature sensitive and do alot more work than a pleco that will outgrow your tank and leave strings of poop everywhere....lol I am so glad to hear he is feeling better and getting his balance back. The reason they can't hold their balance when they have a bladder infection like this is .....if you look close there is a line that runs the whole length of their body. This is called their lateral line it is like their equilibrium and the bladder is right in the middle.Your doing fine I hope to hear more good news.

      People who don't have fish don't realize what personality they have and how easy it is for them to become a part of your family. I used to have a puffer that would ride the bubbles and then go back down and do it again. Over and over...lol Your tank size is fine for quite awhile. Oh and the red in his eye may take quite some time to go away because of a broken blood vessel it will reabsorb eventually but, may not all the way. That's OK. Please keep me updated. Please send a picture of his boo boo if you can and a regular pic so I can see how bloated he is. If you can. What is his name? Don't over stress coat him. Good Luck, Tina  

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Tina~
I am absolutely spent, and I can't thank you enough..what it meant to hear from you and be advised by someone who truly cares and has knowledge.  I am in an area with very limited resources..only the marcyn was available unless I special order another med..it will take til tues. (it's sat) There are no aquatic vets..etc.  Even the 3 pet store and 1 fish store have completely different ideas and really don't stock much at all.  

I did get the pure epsom salt and gave him a bath exactly as you said. He was just on his side the whole day til then..if he heard me or perceived me, he would 'come to life' and upright himself, or try and swim, and then stop again.  He was different than when i had written you, except for sure his bad eye was much better.  

When i returned from trying everywhere, I gave him the stone again, and made the epsom bath, leaving him in until 5 min because he was reacting well once again.  I made a new batch of the medicine with the tsp salt as you suggested, per 10 gal.  I had thrown out the old batch of medicine this morning, because I was expecting to get the new med today, but there was NOTHING in this valley.  So I opted, with the consult of the other pet stores, to put him back in the marcyn since it did help him.  (His eye and wounds, which still look bad, but healing).  My plan was to ask you re: the stress coat.

After the epsom salts, he rested a bit, and then became very active, I put probably twice the volume of water into his hosp tank, because he could tolerate it and seemed to like it, he seemed to want to swim. In fact, he was swimming stronger and upright, that he was sliding against the sides of the plastic tank.  So i felt I should let him have more room and see how it would go in the larger tank that I use to mix the meds in .  There seemed to be no real delema, because the one he'd been in was not giving him enough room to move, suddenly.

I decided to let him go in the 10 gal with me watching every move, because after the epsom salts, he wanted to swim, it appeared.  He was better than ever in the water.  I took video of almost the whole time i let him be in there, i was thinking for you to see.  You could see his wounds and eyes very well..his eye that was popped looked deflated, and the the other one seemed distorted, though..

I got close ups of everything. He was able to swim down and he would float back up, but he had far more control than I've ever seen since this began.
when he stayed floating, i decided to put him back in the little one, the hospital tank, because I really, really needed to rest. I haven't eaten or sat down all day or the day before..or before..you know? I felt like I really couldn't do much more..truly..But I felt the chance to move around would be good for dislodging what was clogging him.

So I took video of him in the little tub, because he seemed to be doing so much better, and I wanted to show you what i could.  then it seemed like I saw bubbles coming out when he'd flip a bit, and I hypothesized it was the gas moving around.  

The oddest thing of all, was that for the first time, when he would rest on his side, it was the opposite side..in other words his 'bad' side, the side with the popeye and worsened wound...was fully exposed.  I've never seen that, that is the side that always pulls him down, keeping him from staying upright.  I really thought it must be a good sign, well..some sign.

So i took close ups of that (I just use my old camera phone..it's unobtrusive, very small flip=phone variety.

anyway, I was excited, I thought maybe his gas/bladder etc was moving around, encouraged, as you were earlier by the little bubble/burp.

And then...no more Sharkie.  He just stopped.  I actually have it on tape.  It's heartbreaking beyond...because I was right there..I mean, right there..Not only right there, i was right there, believing I was watching and taping his improvement.  I thought these were all signs of him gaining his control back.  Seriously, i think i may have the last 15 min of his life on tape, because i thought it would be diagnostic and also interesting to see him heal.

so, if you want, as private, I can send you the video, it has me in it, so I don't feel comfortable putting it on the web.  I feel so defeated..like I lost so much..and I don't know why.  Although a closeup I took of him seems to be that there is swelling between his eyes.  I don't know if that happens when something (a fishie) dies, or that was maybe the big problem? I don't know...

He was definately more active after the treatments, and I truly thought he was not a sick fishie, just getting over the effects of his scrape.  And then..i lost him.  Sharkie, that's his name, because he was such a big toughie...Living so much longer than anyone said he could.  Even when I called Pet Smart La Jolla, I was told instantly:  'well, he's 3 years, it's his time..I' mean that's pretty good".  that was before I reached you.

thank you so much, i was expecting to write you and send you pics of something very positive and hopeful. I did not expect this at all, and I'm sure neither did you.. Your input and really thoughtful thorough responses meant so much to me when I couldn't find any 'expert' in my area.  And a special thank you for being willing to plow through my wordiness & repetition..these things I write you are so long..but i just have given all I had to saving Sharkie, there's nothing left over for good penmenship. That was above & beyond for you to read these...i think you are a tremendous asset to the site, and I think this type of interchange is exactly what the founders had in mind.  People need one another for team work in problem solving, and often like minded/ hearted are not readily available where one lives.  This is the best use of the internet. Thank you for your part in it, Tina.
         
All said,

I can't believe I just lost my little Sharkie.

Answer
Elizabeth,     I am so sorry to hear about Sharkie. As I started your letter I really had hope. As I read your letter my heart dropped too. I know he was your baby. You did everything you could!!!! The maracyn and salt was great. This is what I think happened. There is a parasite called a fluke worm. Alot of goldfish even though they medicate them after receiving them it a general cure. Goldfish especially koi are brought to the store with them. Unless they do what is called a scraping and look under a microscope they are sometimes hard to see. They can carry these guys for years. In the meantime they are slowly working their way inside and causing internal problems. One of the big things they love to do is fill the gills. By then you may be able to see them with the plain eye and suffocate them. I think it was an infestation that took Sharkie. Not your fault. I think the wound allowed them to get in faster it was like 123. Its nature and it is hard, I know. The first thing you need to do is throw that video away.You do not want to remember Sharkie like that. There is nothing but sadness that can come from watching it. If you would like to send me a copy so I can see exactly what happened that would be appreciated. Pet smart....hmmmmm chain pet stores in general put the smaller ones out of business and there were your experts. Some take their job seriously some are just working through school or what have you. Though, I can say that their policy is it is all about the animal and if you couldn't afford the medicine and someone had diagnosed him they will give it to you. Next time you have a problem ask for the petcare manager...or whoever has been there the longest. Fish also hide their sicknesses very well and by the time you notice it is usually bad. Do Not let this discourage you from getting another Goldie it won't be Sharkie but, trust me it will have its own interesting personality. I am sure Sharkie would like that you didn't give up. I looked back through your letters and and I don't think you told me what type of goldie he was. Anyway as far as how long they will live in captivity depends on how well you keep their water and how you let the tank grow with them. Some breeds of fancies like your oranda's and black mor's can live up to thirty years. I have had my black mor molly for almost nine now. If it was one of the cheaper feeder golds I am not surprised parasites and they are so much better in ponds. What you need to do while your tank is empty do a good cleaning and add coppersafe for sure. Add the dose I think it is 1 tspn per gallon or per ten been awhile since I've used it. It is like 6 dollars. It will last you a long, long time. Leave your filter running. Your tank should be ready on about a week. Go get a new baby. It will make you feel better I promise and thee is one waiting out there just for, you and it needs you!!!!!! My email is shimmergrl67@aol.com if you can send the video. God Bless and Good Luck, Tina