rattie infections/sneezing etc.

Question
QUESTION: Sandra--
I actually have several questions regarding a couple of different things.

First off I have two male rats that are about 10 or 11 months old. Remus, the less aggressive rat seems noticeably different, mostly pertaining to his eyes being squintier. He has been sneezing quite frequently and seems a bit more lethargic. He seems to be eating and drinking fine, but is definitely not as big as his brother. I noticed some little sores caused by scratching on his shoulders, but then changed their diet to be less high protein, putting together a homemade mixture and supplementing it with a natural dog food. The little sores went away so I'm assuming it was from their diet.

The other, bigger rat, Sirius, seems to be doing fine apart from occasional sneezing. Both rats have some red staining around their noses.

I definitely want to get Remus checked out by the vet, but Sirius seems somewhat fine. Do you think it is necessary to take them both in, even if Sirius isn't as bad as Remus? I am a student and don't have much money for these types of things, yet I don't want to treat Remus only to have him catch whatever it was back again from Sirius. Does this--the staining, the sneezing, the lethargy, squinty eyes etc. sound like mycoplasma or just an infection?

Another thing:
About a week ago, on my bed when I had them out to play, they got into a big fight that caused fur to fly and they were both actually bleeding from areas where the fur was pulled out. I immediately tried to clean these areas and put a bit of neosporin on them. I thought the wounds were healing okay until yesterday--they had scabs that were kind of strange looking, and upon further inspection were infected. I bathed them both today using small animal shampoo and dabbed the areas with hydrogen peroxide and neosporin. Should I be really worried about this? What can I do to help them heal properly or is this more of a matter for my vet?

Any help would be great.
Thanks,
Zoe

ANSWER: Hi Zoe


Lets start with the easy things first.  The bite wounds. Are there lumps under them? If so, there may be pus in them and they are abscessed. Let me know if you feel lumps under the scabs.
I would refrain from peroxide. It can damage the delicate tissues around the wound and it burns like the dickens. The antibiotic ointment is fine. I am curious about the underlying skin beneath the scab so be sure to see if there is any swelling and let me know.

As for the respiratory issues. It does sound like mycoplasmosis which is an infection from the mycoplasma organism and if your babies never had a flare up before, be sure you are fully armed with knowledge on how to properly treat it because once they start with it, without proper treatment, it can become chronic. If it is a secondary infection, they often are a little more ill, stop eating, become lethargic etc...which is why myco can be so dangerous. It is the secondary infections, often pneumonia, which makes it serious.  It is really hard to say at this point what it is, but it does sound like myco flaring up and this is the prime age, unfortunately.
Do you have a vet for your rats that knows all about properly treating them etc? If not, please check out my website and there is a link to the AEMV. THere, you will find a menu that helps you locate a vet in your area. Its not worth it to see a vet with no real first hand experience with rats or your rat will not be treated right for myco.  You seem to already know alot about rat care, impressing me most the way you handled the scabs and figured it was from too much protein int their diet (good job!) you would be surprised how many people are unaware about too much protein and what it can do to their skin and worse yet, the damage it can do to the rats kidneys.
For myco treatment, they should be given an antibiotic that works on an organsim that has no cell well. THere are just a few available which would be baytril as the first choice. Some vets use doxycycline too, which is not always necessary unless after the first 3 days the rat doesnt respond well to baytril. Using both of them often work together to destroy the infection.  Either way, the medication should be dispensed at least 21 days, I prefer 30 and some exotic vets are now even stretching it to 6 weeks, which I plan to research. Perhaps they have found some new way to really hold myco at bay by dispensing the medication for 6 weeks. If the medication is used any less than 21 days, they tend to relapse, and the second relapse is often worse than the first. After the second relapse, sometimes there is mild to moderate damage done to the lungs causing scarring or even blistering of the lungs. This can lead to chronic lung disease.
There are many other organisms that can cause respiratory infection in rats, some are totally resistant to antibiotics, others may be viral, but either way, these types of infections are the last thing we want to see our rats get.  Key is to take precautions yourself, washing up, changing clothes and  laundering them if around the sick animals.

As for the vet and having them both checked, you shouldnt have to have both checked and be charged for it. I would bring them both but not make an appointment for Sirius, only Remus. You can make mention to the vet that Sirius is ok but share your concerns and ask if you can give him medication as well.  He should NOT charge you without seeing him, but be sure you know his weight so you can tell the vet how much he  weighs, of if he is the same as Remus he would probably dose the same amount. The vet should sell you enough for both.

Here is the URL for the Vet info

http://www.freewebs.com/crittercity/therightvetforyourrat.htm

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Sandra,
There was pus inside of them, and I attempted to remove most of it while cleaning the wounds out. As of now, they have all scabbed over (there are three total) and I don't think that there are lumps under them as far as I can tell--apart from the lumpiness of the scab itself. I used peroxide because I wasn't sure what else to use in order to clean them. My immediate assumption and concerns about the peroxide was that it might be too painful for such a small animal (and thus put them into shock). What would be a better astringent for such things? Should I be cleaning around these scabs and reapplying ointment everyday? It seems as though living in their own waste everyday would be a cause for extra cleaning of these areas.

I don't have a vet and definitely need to find one. Does this list provide the names for every single doctor who is AEMV certified? Or if I called around to the vets in my immediate area and asked if any specialized in small mammals would that be okay too? As I can see from the list, the closest listed doctor is about a 30-45 minute drive.

For some reason I was under the impression that mycoplasmosis was actually a disease that would have to be treated their entire lives and wouldn't actually go away. Its great to know that it can be treated. How much do these medications usually cost? I think that Remus may have been sick for a while now, as he has been sneezing and squinty for a while. The red staining probably started about a week and a half ago. However, they are both still eating and drinking fine--as for lethargy, they are laying around quite a bit, which is strange considering I just bought them a larger cage.

What I'm most confused about is why they aren't equally as sick--aren't these respiratory ailments highly contagious? Is Sirius just more resistant (he definitely is fatter)? Is that even possible? This is what confused me the most about Remus' little sores that went away--Sirius didn't have them. I didn't think it was mites because I assumed they would have both been affected, but they are both fed the same food as well--is that common to see--one rat being more prone to illness?

Anyway, thank you so much, you have been really really helpful!

Zoe

ANSWER: Hi Zoe

If the vet isnt listed with the AEMV that person is not a true exotic vet. This can be confusing because some vets that have a general practice will say that they "see" small mammals and have a special interest in them but they did not take the extra education required to take the state boards to become an actual exotic vet. Also these vets dont always have the proper implements needed to accomodate small mammals like I talked about on my webpage. Some dont even have the right medications. A vet that is geared toward treating these guys have everything fit to size, from tiny surgical tools to yummy syrups to put in nasty medications so the rat will want to take the medications so badly they grab the syringe and RUN with it!  It is also not unusual that the vet requires a drive to get to see him or her. I drive 45 minutes in heavy traffic:(  There are only a handful of exotic vets per state and sadly, under 200 worldwide!!!!  
I have used regular vets that see rats and they only know the basics. If your rat has myco, they will treat it as a respiratory infection not really knowing the ins and outs of myco and how it is something they are born with and a rat with the "right" or should I say the WRONG immune system will surrender to the disease which progresses into sometimes emphysema and even contributes to heart disease. They wont know that mammary tumors are fueled from high estrogen levels and they wont realize rats can take valium and that rats can get diabetes or that rats need a lower protein diet and that they can get kidney disease from high proteins putting too much strain on the kidney function, and they wont even realize that rats dont vomit (that is SCARY when a vet doesnt know that....and I have found many that dont!)

Your right that myco is a disease that doesnt go away. It cannot be cured but it can be contained. It is the secondary infections that myco spawns off that we need to worry about and the damage so many of these infections cause each time the rat relapses. Rats are born with the myco organism. It is found in the uterus of the female and passed on to the pups.  Why some rats get sick from it and others dont depends on the individual rat. Keep in mind myco is a bacteria that causes illness such as respiratory infections, urinary tract infections, uterine infections in intact females, ear infections (often referred to as otitis media) which contributes to head tilt as well as other neurological problems. This is one thing many non rat vets are not aware of and that is the fact ear infections can cause the same symptoms as a brain tumor and often they do not properly tret the rat and the rat doesnt get better so they talk the person into putting the rat to sleep convincing them it is a brain tumor. We have had rats come in like this before, the client is devastated and wants another opinion before letting them go; we give them baytril because the culprit is often myco, and something for inflammation since there is pressure on the 8th cranial nerve which controls equilibrium, and they show signs of improving in a week or less. The sad thing is, had this person listen to the other vet the rat would be dead over an ear infection. If the traditional vet doesnt first treat it as an ear infection using steroids or NSAIDS, the rat wont recover and they think its terminal. Scary stuff and its all true. There are some regular DVMs that are AWESOME, so you need to just be educated enough on rat ailments to know what to look for in a vet if your not going to go for a real exotic vet. I think you are very well versed in rat care and their health and well being and should be able to spot a good vet for your rat as long as the vet doesnt have a one track mind and think that everything a rat has wrong with them needs baytril to get better and if they tell you to put meds in the water, you know you have yourself a dud.  What is the name of the exotic vet you found? You can mark the follow up PRIVATE if you want to keep names private etc...

Also,you asked about myco being contagious. Its the secondary infections that may be catchy but again, depending on the rats immune system. One thing that people may do is isolate the sick rat. The thing is, if they were around the other rats when they first came down with whatever it is that is ailing them, they already spread their germs around so everyone was "contaminated" so to speak. No need to isolate the sick rat and stress him more by making him live alone. This isnt good for the immune system either.
Also, the meds? I would say that baytril should not run more than $25 and others can be from $5 and up..depends on what it is. Some meds are just $10.  Most good antibiotics will run right around $15 to $30 at the most. Office visit should be around $29 to maybe $40 on the high side. Things I would pass on would be xrays....unless the vet has a good reason, we know the lungs arent that great and a good vet can "hear" what he needs to hear in most cases. If the vet suspects pneumonia, it probably is and there is no need to stress the rat for xrays and spare your wallet, or reserve it for some other test, something more valuable such as a blood test down the road.
Hope I didnt blab too much.....sometimes I get going and cant shut up!  LOL

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: http://www.foothillpethospital.com/michaelrittenberg.html

This guy was on the list an he sounds really great--he is located under 45 minutes from where I live.

I am going to make an appointment for this week--and as far as only making an appointment for Remus, but bringing Sirius along with, they won't think that that's sneaky, right?

I can't wait to see all the tiny tools! What sort of cage should I take them in? I have a very small cage that should be really easy, but it seems almost too small even. Is a medium-small cage better, or is a small cage more appropriate for traveling?

Thank you so much for all your reassuring help--it was actually your website that helped me figure out the high protein diet thing and helped me make a better switch. Do you know as far as the homemade mix if there is a way to encourage them to eat the healthier pieces? They mostly eat the grain mix, leaving a bigger portion of the dog food behind. Is it ok just to leave the dog food in by itself for a while so they have no choice but to eat it? Or will they not eat it anyway?

I feel so much better about this whole vet thing now.
Thanks again,
Zoe

Answer
That vet sounds TERRIFIC!!!!  

As for what to put them in, I use cat carriers. Do you have cats?  I have 6 cats in various sizes (LOL!!) so I have a big cat carrier that the rats can fit in PLUS the igloo and they cant fit through the holes on the front door(important to check if rats are small) The water bottle even fits through the holes but it does leak when I hit bumps in the road.  You can grab one for about $10 to $12 at Petsmart but whatever you have at home I am sure is fine. Just be sure they have something to hide in when in the cage so they are not exposed in the open. That will freak them and stress them.

Write down everything that worries you about what your rat is doing so you dont forget anything.

Just be sure you keep the cool air on them if its hot where you are so it doesnt get hot in the carrier.  They wont think your sneaky if you bring the other rat...he is there for company. I leave both rats together all the time.  When one is sick the other goes to the vet unless I sure the other one is dying:( and even at that time I may let the cagemate come so they can see that he is not coming back. Its pretty sad so I wont go into detail but it does help rats when they have closure. They do understand to an extent.

As for the dog food, you can try something else other than the dog food. You can try regal rat or harlan teklad rodent blocks and even mazuri rodent blocks are ok since they are only picking at them and not making them their main staple diet.  Mix and match, experiment, see what works for them.  My boys would live off of dried oatmeal flakes if I let them!  LOL


Oh and as for the lumps (abscesses) you can use saline solution if you have it. Contact solution is ok if it doesnt have preservatives in it. If anything, plain warm water will do and the neosporin ointment twice a day is fine. Try to pop them again to be sure they are free of pus and before you know it, they should close up and go away. If they are still there for the vet to see, thats fine , and this way he may treat them there as well or even give oral meds for them. Well, wait, the meds that they give for myco will help any infection in the skin too so either way, this is all good. When you call be sure to let them know your rat has respiratory issue so they dont make you wait weeks and weeks. He should be seen this week or ASAP!