Re: training

Question
QUESTION: This is the question I sent to Janell, but she thought it would be better directed to you.
"Hi there!
I've recently adopted two new rats, each with different problems, to join our third "widowed" rat.
One, Tegan, is at least a year old and very friendly, but she's a runner. If we put her on the couch, she immediately runs and hides in the most difficult and, sometimes, dangerous place she can find. Like I said, shes a sweet rat, she's friendly, but she's got some sort of fatal attraction to the floor.
The other, Piper, was born about 4-5 months ago, and the litter wasn't socialized much. At first she was shy and mostly stayed in her hut, but she'd take a treat or two. Now she's basically unresponsive. She is not curious or playful. She barely moves except to eat or drink. She doesn't really move at all. We put her in isolation in a smaller cage to see if we could get her to interact yesterday, and we're trying to do trust training with her, but, like I said, she's unresponsive. We've had success with "problem" rats before, but I'm at a loss with both of them.
We got both rats from a small animal rescue that was a bit overloaded about 2 weeks ago. They never fought with our old rat and have never even tried to bite us, so they seem to be just behaviour problems rather than a more serious issue. Other than that, both are healthy - eating, drinking, pooping as they should, no obvious health problems.
Any help in training these lovely girls into good rats would be appreciated."
Since I wrote this question, which was probably on the 25th, we only kept her in isolation for about 12 hours; she wasn't happy. She basically stays in the hut that the rats share, and the others usually bring her food. She comes out to drink. I think she's for the most part content and we;re by no means expecting a cuddl creature, just someone who's a bit more... rat-like.
Thanks so much for any advice!
Steph

ANSWER: Hi Steph!

Janell and I are friends and so we do this on occasion. She sends over the rat behavior or complicated medical questions my way and I send the pregnant rats  or anything about genetics and breeding her way.

For starters, Your rats need a place of their own to play, esp the "runner"  I have this great rat playpen fence that I spread around the room from one part of the cage, extending it around to the other side of the cage. I open the door, put out some toys that they only play with during play time and spend the time cleaning their cage up and feeding them etc...taking care of course not to step on them, and after that, I plop down on the floor with them and they end up climbing on me like I am a human jungle gym!  I put out cardboard boxes with holes cut out, and box full of scraps of fleece that were left over from their fleece blankets I use on the floor of their cage: the ideas are endless of what you can put out for them. Paper bags are a hit too and I am eyeballing this really cool ferret toy that reminds me of a cat scratching post that is lined with carpeting and has levels for them to climb in.  Heck you can make it out of cardboard boxes really.  If they fence is something you dont have the funds for (its about $40 at Petsmart) I found a great idea on the dapper rat! She uses flat cardboard and connected them together to make a huge wall.In fact that is great so they cannot climb over it or jump it if its higher than 3 feet.  

Here is a picture of it:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/sugarfoxx/rats%20nest%20icons/toysrun-1.jp

So thats for starters. Forget the couch. Thats YOUR couch, not theirs. It will keep Tegan safe, thats for sure. I wont even tell you the horrors that can occur with the couch and your rat that I have seen happen with various clients rats.
As for your anti-social rat, Piper: I will assume she doesnt want you to pick her up at all. Does she come out when nobody is around?
You have had her for how long, 2 weeks?  You notice no health problems so I will assume she isnt lethargic, right?  She is just shy when your around?  
Tell me what methods you have used with trust training her so far so I can see what may be going on with her.  I have trained many anti-social rats, including aggressive lab rats and even a wild rat, who became my most beloved rat of all time and I still mourn her loss when she passed July 07 at close to 4 years old. She was a ruthless biter that would attack anything that moved.  A week of consistent trust training, all done in repetition since rats tend to learn repetitive behavior the most, and she became the cuddle rat I never expected her to be. I Just wanted to preserve my fingers. LOL!

Anyhow, before I continue on I wanted to ask how you have tried to train her first and we can go from there. I have a few ideas, but starting with containing her in an area that is meant for rats only is where to start. They soon learn this area is their play ground and there are no limitations. Everything down on the ground for them is there for them. No chasing around saying NO and having to dig anyone out of places they should not be. Having access to their cage is also a security to them, knowing they can go into their cage just a few feet away is a real confidence booster and this means no rat has to be forced out of the cage for playtime if they dont want to come out, but they usually do anyhow. In fact if you stick to a specific plan like I am probably going to suggest, they will set their internal clock for their play time and actually be waiting to come out when you set things up for them. They will even come to recognize their own toys when they see you bring them out and they will realize its time to play soon.

ANyhow hope to hear from you soon so we can go over a few things and get little Piper to enjoy life as a pet rat a little more in her new forever home!!

Sandy

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I just thought I'd ecplain how we have their cage set up - the rats have an amply large cage (I'm sure it would comfortably fit 4) on a dining room-size table that's all theirs. Replete with boxes and tubes and whatnot, because the cage is left open so long as someone is there. Their hut in the bottom of the cage is "rat only".
I was just hoping, with reference to Tegan, that there was a way to curb her running. Our other rats would muck around on the couch(and us, of course), chasing the cats, cuddling into the cushions, all that. But Tegan just darts! That's fine if it's just her temprament, though. She really is the perfect buddy for our "widow".
With Piper, she really doesn't come out of her hut at all, except to drink. She basically freezes if you spot her when she;s out of the hut. You can pick her up or try to put something under her nose, and she won't move. What's worked with previous rats is sweet potato baby food. At first we start with the rat in the cage and a bit of food on a spoon(our first rat was a biter). THen it goes onto a fingertip, then the palm, then the wrist and so on up the arm and (ever so slowly) out of the cage. By the end, the other rats have been excited to see a hand coming. As a result, whatever rat feels like coming out just comes up to the door or waits on the table to be picked up.
Piper seems so nervous that you don't have to put your hand in the cage, or even have the door open. We;ve tried the spoon which she ignored, and one day she licked some off my fingertip but she hasn't done anything since.
We know she likes the baby food because we'd leave some in her cage and she'd eat it.

A side note, I really understand the feeling of loss that comes with losing a pet that you've had to "work" for. Jules, our first rat(and the biter) became a lovely, well-behaved girl, and the similarity in colouring was why I chose Piper.

ANSWER: Tegan doesnt seem to like the couch and her play area much like the other rats do.  
Is this the only area they play, the couch? You described their cage but what about their play area? Is it on a dining room table as well?
I am just trying to figure why she runs and hides unless she thinks it is fun to do.

Piper is very shy, obviously, and she needs more time to adjust and learn to trust you. Patience is an absolute must and do not let her pick up on any frustrations you may have about her being stubborn. She is fearful yet.  Some rats freeze in place when scared. I have several cats and are not allowed in the rat room but one day one of my big black boys snuck in and I thought the two black berks that are scared of cats, were sleeping. I was wrong. My biggest boy, Socrates, who tips the scales at 2lbs plus, came nose to nose with Spawn, and instead of run...he froze....he could not move a muscle he was so overcome with fear. I tossed Spawn out of the room and went back to the cage to calm Socs, who had already ran by that time.  I could not calm him down for a long long time.  He just was in this trance, like he was scared to move.
It seems she acts that way to an extent...she freezes up and doesnt want to come out because she fears her surroundings yet.  Gentle coaxing and more time passed will probably work.  Again, repeating the same actions daily will help her because she will start to remember that the same thing occurs daily and there is no harm coming to her during this time so she will start to loosen up.



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: THe play area is on the table. I think Tegan likes her surroundings, I think she also enjoys hiding in the couch. She certainly cries "crocodile tears" when we have to move her into the cage for the night. She is anything but fearful! The woman from whom we got her kept finding her in the ferret cages! She and our cat Steve seem to be even becoming buddies.
The odd thing about Piper is that she didn't particularily mind the cats before we moved the rats to the big cage, but they're not allowed on the rat table so she doesn't see them now.
I'm just wondering, because she does freeze, is it okay to pet her gently, and for a very short time? She wont take the baby food, so I'm trying to figure out different ways to socialize her. Usually, interactions last for about 5 seconds, a few times a day.

Answer
AH HA!  So Tegan is the major investigator?  I couldnt decide if she liked the couch or thinks its fun, and of course since you know her and I dont, you say she likes to hide, likes to roam and nose around.

The fact she cries the blues when she has to be caged for the night just may be one way to stop her from doing something.  

Blackmail!   LOL

You can try it, although I dont want to consider this punishment even though it seems it is. You can certainly get her to understand by doing one thing may create another and she will get the picture.  Once she hides and you get her out, her time out is cut short and to the cage she goes.

If rats can be trained to sniff out land mines, Tegan will get the idea that she is doing something she isnt supposed to be doing....but will this break her spirit and who "she is"?  Maybe. As you said before and I gave it alot of thought, this may be part of who she is and the only thing to do is simply keep her from the couch if there is a chance she may get in a situation that may be harmful to her.

As for little Piper, you dont want to stop interacting with her and petting her etc...but let me ask, when does she seem to freeze up?
When she sees you, when you pet her, or just all the time?