Older Rat

Question
QUESTION: We have a 2 1/4 year Himalayan female rat. She is showing definite signs of her age. She doesnt pick up her food anymore. Her gait and walk are slightly stooped and she looks weak. Lost some weight too.
Im comforted by the fact that she still has a good appetite and is still exploratory and is able to walk.
She has a small tumor under her hind leg. Also a case of conjunctivitis that just appeared for a couple days

Is there anything we can do for the tumor / eyes / general health? Any specific foods or vitamins we can give her.

Do you recommend any good veterenarians who specialize in rats.

Thank you,
Josh

ANSWER: Hi Josh


Sweet older rats, I just love them. You said she doesn't pick up her food anymore which concerns me.

Does she use her front paws at all, like for grooming?

Also,I need to know what the discharge looks like from her eyes. Is it red or clear or even green or white to opaque? Does it bother her (her  eyes, that is)

Also, I need to know what her diet consists   of now in order to see what you can add to her diet.  Normally it is suggested that rats are fed a low fat and low protein diet. This is due to the fact that high protein in the rats diet contributes to kidney disease when they are older , but it is also ok to increase the protein in older rats, especially when suffering from any type of degenerative changes .

Often if the rat is showing signs of these changes, I like to give my senior rats  Glucosamine .    This is often used as a supplement in conditions when degenerative joint disease is seen. However, until we know what is wrong with her and where she stands physically, I would refrain from using this due to the fact that it is responsible for decreased platelet function which can interfere with blood clotting.

One thing that is ok to use would be a nutritional supplement used also for humans called ENSURE and also another called BOOST. A little goes a long way and the rats usually love it. Its simply a drink that is packed with vitamins that is used often in the elderly ,especially those that are not eating properly.  You can find it in grocery stores and also drug stores too.

I can find you a good exotic vet if you let me know your zip code.
It would be a good idea to bring her in just to have her looked at. I do worry that the fact she isn't using her front paws to eat could be neurological in nature and I am hoping it isn't from a pituitary tumor that is so commonly found in intact females that are past menopause age, which is why I asked if she uses her front paws for other things. Also watch to make sure she is chewing and swallowing ok.       
The fact you said her gait seems off also has me a bit concerned too. Although there isn't much that can be done for these types of tumors, they can be treated symptomatically, such as using steroids for inflammation and lupron to stop estrogen production which in turn has actually been responsible in shrinking estrogen fueled tumors, which are exactly what mammary tumors and pituitary tumors are:  from estrogen levels that are higher after menopause, between 18 months and 2 years old.

I love Himy's and in fact I have a little neutered himy male that is blind in both eyes but still the most energetic little guy I have ever seen. They are strong and tough and just amazing little pets.

Hope to hear back from you soon. Please let me know your zip code and also the few things I asked about her current diet and also about the use of her hands.  By the way, does she seem to walk in a circle when she walks or tend to act as if she has lost her way for a bit?

Regards

Sandra

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: My zipcode is 06269 or 06483. The major metro's near me are Hartford or New Haven.
    She doesnt pick up her food with her paws like she used. If you hand her food she will simply nible straight away. She wont take it elsewhere and hide it. When she is out of the cage she still explores and can walk straight.
    We usually feed her fresh food. When she was young we liked to give her vegetables and sure enough soon she became   picky and wouldnt touch rat blocks. A normal days diet might be some lettuce, a cucumber slice, cherry tomato, shaved carrots, red beans, and occasionally some tofu.
  She does groom still groom with her front paws. Im hoping that all these signs are just her being a little tired from the eye infection. The discharge is red. We get a warm compress and blot it out every now and then.
Her appetite is strong which reassures me.    
Her tumor isnt prohibitively big. I would say its a bit less than the size of a peanut. It should impair her walking.
This is my first himalayan! We didnt know what she was until someone told us she is a special breed. I love how their dark patches change with the temps! She is pretty sweet and has always been energetic and playful which is why her current state is so sad...


ANSWER: Hi Josh


Ok thanks for the info. For starters, she probably doesn't have an eye infection. What she is is porphyrin discharge.  Many rat owners think it is blood because of its color but its more of a reddish brown or even darker red when dried. It can also appear around the nose.
Porphryin is produced by the harderian gland that is found behind the rats eyes. It is made to lubricate the rats third eyelids but when a rat is stressed from illness or other factors, they produce more porphryin than normal and it secretes from the eyes and nose too. They can also smear it onto their fur during grooming and tinge the lighter furred rats with the pinkish color some people see on their fur.
Alot of the times when rats have eye infections the eyeball itself turns white and it may even bulge out of the socket. The drainage is often pus and its greenish to white. This is why I feel it is porphyrin instead which of course indicates she isn't feeling too hot either way.
The tumor sounds mammary in nature....if she gets a thumbs up on her exam and the vet feels confident her health is stable, I wouldn't hesitate to have it removed. I have had rats over 3 have surgery and do fantastic, living to be 4 years old and if they did not have the tumor removed they never would have hung on that long!

I wont really pick on her diet since she is as old as she is and has been doing good but her diet could improve a bit more. You can add some green peas to her diet, perhaps some dried oatmeal, semi cooked whack mac pasta is a huge hit (its the green and orange pasta that is spinach and tomato I believe) and many other foods and grains as follows:
Dried oatmeal flakes
broccoli florets
cooked brown rice
flax seeds
Total cereal
apples
various melons
corn   **Dried corn can contain high levels of fungal contaminates which has been linked to liver cancer in rats but frozen, fresh or even canned on occasion is fine and contains complex carbs they need.
rice chex cereal (Unsweetened)
Cheerios **within reason**

I would avoid peanut butter due to the fact I have seen rats die from it clogging their throats and choking them.

Anyhow the above is part of my homemade diet I follow and I also use regal rat by oxbow which is a good low protein (15 percent) which of course we need to limit it to below 18 percent. Just a thought on making her diet more of a variety but again, I mean...I cant say you have done wrong....look how old our grand lady is! :)

I do feel she needs a vet though. I don't like the excessive porphyrin discharge from her eyes.
Also, to view what porphyrin looks like to see if this is what your rat has from her eyes, check out this link:

This rat has copious amounts from her eyes and nose and your rat may not look as bad, but this is a general idea. I can see there is a surgical incision on the rat so she must be stressed from some kind of surgical procedure.

http://www.researchtraining.org/images/Module602/7_Rats_porphyrin.jpg

Anyhow, here is a link to my website which you may find interesting:

http://www.freewebs.com/crittercity/allaboutratcare.htm


Also, below are two vets that are less than an hour from your area code. I have to drive close to 45 mins. to my vet so really you don't have too far to go, esp if your going to the first vet, which is my first pick.

I would go for South Wilton Veterinary Group first but either is fine.

This place is est. to be a 30 min. drive from your zip code to here:

South Wilton Veterinary Group  
51 Danbury Road
Wilton CT 06897
Phone:    203-762-2002
Website: www.southwiltonvet.com

*************
This facility is est. to be 45 mins. from your zip

Bethel Veterinary Hospital    
25A Turkey Plain Rd Rt 53
Bethel CT 06801
Phone:    203-794-0247
Website: www.bethelvethospital.com
***********


Please let me know how it goes and how everything turns out. Good luck and hope I helped!

Sandra


ADDITIONAL INFO:

Sorry I forgot to add this URL earlier.  It has more pictures of rats with the red discharge for you to compare your rats discharge to.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/sugarfoxx/rats%20nest%20icons/PorphyrinEye

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j71/sugarfoxx/rats%20nest%20icons/PorphyrinEye


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you Sandra!
We believe that she is definitely exhibiting stroke symptoms.
The worst of it was shortly after I posted on this forum.
That was a rough night and to be honest we considered taking her to a vet and euthanizing her just to be humane.
She could barely stand up straight and would fall on her side unable to get up again. it was really a hard sight to see.

The good news is we didnt put her down and decided to fight. We got her the boost you recommended and hand fed her water since she didnt take to her water bottle anymore.

She got much better in a few days. The poryphin discharge stopped, she was drinking water from the bottle, and she was walking better. Still not holding her food but she was doing so well we considered setting up her hammock again. We thought that she had recovered from the stoke.

But now she is the same as she was before. We think she might have had a second stroke at some point. Her walk is again severely uneven and at times she cant even hold herself up. She can only stumble around hoping her mouth comes across food in her cage. So we hand feed her several times a day both water / boost and some vegetables / fruit. In her cage we leave her some boost mixed in with cereal to give a mashed consistency. Theres also some other solid food if she's up for it.

My friend who is on Prednisone 5mg gave me a couple pills. Following some dosage guidelines online I gave her a measured (slightly conservative) dose just now. Hopefully that will make her a bit stronger.

Is there anything we can do to make her walk better. She has a hard time navigating through the aspen shaving on her cage floor. And even though we have her hammock resting on the floor now she cant navigate into it. We hold her often now and always help her into it when we can but are often not her to help. Its really sad to come back and see her curled up in the shavings with no comfort at all.

What would you recommend we do? both for treatment and just basic quality of life for the possible short life she has ahead. I still have much hope she will pull through especially after the recovery from her first stroke.

Answer
Hi Josh

The prednisone is a good idea. Do you have enough to give her at least twice a day?  About what does she weigh?


As for the aspen shavings...go ahead and put it in a shoe box in the corner. Put down a soft blanket like a fleece baby blanket or a dish towel that is more like linen instead of real fluffy or the threads will get caught on her nails. I like the fleece baby blankets. You get get them at Walgreens for $1 and change them out daily. I am not sure how your cage is set up but you can lift the cage part, lay the blanket down, put the cage down and this secures the material in place so it doesnt slide all over the place when she walks on it. If she is not super active you can even use double sided tape or roll masking tape into a little ball and tape it down from underneath. She may go to the shoe box with aspen and do her business. Most rats do. They prefer to use litter to go to the bathroom in.  Just toss in a few droppings for good measure so she gets the idea she is supposed to use this, which I am sure she can figure that out pretty easily.

I am not real sure how to tell you this but I am kind of leaning more toward your girl having a pituitary tumor rather than a stroke or a series of strokes.  It could be either, but the loss of use of her front paws is a strong indicator that she has this tumor. Everything else your describing also strongly suggests a PT.  These nasty tumors are also related to high estrogen levels in intact females like the mammary tumors are.  PTs cannot be treated (removed) since they are found at the base of the brain. In humans, surgery is an option and believe it or not, they have had rats do brain surgery on rats but more or less it was experimental (which is a touchy subject with me...I am split right down the middle when it comes to stuff like this)
Treatment is symptomatic.  Steroids to help with inflammation on the brain (this can also benefit with stroke victims as well) but the only thing is, your almost "robbing Peter to pay Paul" when using steroids if you do not back them up with antibiotics.  Steroids can compromise the immune system over time and cause a nasty infection so it is advised to use antibiotics when treating with steroids.

My male rat, Smudge, has a serious neurologial problem from unknown origin.  One day he just started walking in circles, spinning when he walked, tilted to the side, tipped over, it was just really hard to witness like you stated above about your girl. He was about 15 months at the time. The vet put him on XYZ meds to treat ear infection which was highly suspected, or perhaps stroke...and as time went on and he did not respond to treatment, we started thinking he had some nasty brain tumor. Out of the blue, he stopped flipping and doing somersaults when he walked. He was able to eat the entire time by himself if he would lean against the wall of the cage...and drink too, again, if he found a way to stabilize himself. However, he started to do something really strange. He would (and still does) hold his head pointing straight up at the ceiling and rock back and forth. Now normally, rats, especially those with pink or red eyes, will wave their head back and forth trying to focus and judge the depth of an object. It is known as head swaying and is pretty cute when they do it. This was much more severe though and it was more worrisome than adorable looking.  Turns out he lost his vision when he was stricken with whatever illness/ailment he had.  Totally 100 percent blind.
My poor young Himy boy, Smudge!!!!  He continued on with the prednisone twice a day along with antibiotics.  This went on from Jan. till March and we began to wean him from the steroids (long term use requires the rat to be weaned which I will get to in a minute) and he is still the same but he wasnt getting any better on the prednisone so why give it to him and possibly complicate things?  He lives alone now instead of with his brothers but he doesnt seem to mind. He is in a single story cage and still can find his litter box and he eats like a champ and I have two water bottles for him that are low and he sleeps in a ferret ball that is attached real good to the side of the cage so it doesnt roll. I keep a thick blanket of fleece down for him too but he is and always has been litter box trained.  So, there IS some hope for these rats when they have a severe handicap.  Oh, he still cant walk a straight line. He doesnt roll but he will spin when I take him out of his cage. Its like he is trying to find his way but cant see where he is going.  We are chalking this all up to stroke because if it were a tumor he would not be alive today. We think the stroke was stress related also since he was at the vets with his brother as a companion and his brother was very sick and he passed away at the clinic....we think the stress from all of that caused Smudge to have a stroke since he was always kind of super sensitive to things anyhow.
So I guess what I am suggesting is that there IS hope that if it is a stroke she may recover and this is why I dont suggest putting her to  sleep just yet.

It really depends on the person though. Some people do not want their rat to suffer even for a second so they put them to sleep right away before anything like that occurs.  Me, I feel that they deserve to squeeze out all they can from their already too short life and once they lose their quality of life, its time.  You will know it is time without even asking me or the vet or anyone else. You can see it in their eyes. These wonderful little rats have this certain spark of life and love in their eyes and when they are tired of fighting and feel its time to let go, they lose that special spark of life they have and you will know it the second they do. I cant explain it but one day you will know what I mean and say "Yes, I know just what Sandy the rat lady is talking about!"   
However of course, if she is just so bad she lays there and cant move at all and just goes to the bathroom while she is laying down etc...etc...you will of course know its time to let her go but also you will see it in her eyes as well.

I HATE telling you this and do not want to take away any hope you have for her because there is always hope.  Miracles?  I am not the one to ask about that...some people believe in them, others dont.  Its an individual thing, I guess.

Anyhow, you have enough prednisone there for several doses. What are you giving her as far as the pred goes?

Do you have any way to get your hands on any antibiotics?