Dying Robo Babies

Question
QUESTION: Hi, I was wondering if you could help me with a problem that I've been having.
About a month and a half ago I bought two (supposedly female) Robo hamsters. They turned out to be an opposite sex pair (I found out one night when I saw them mating). 10 days ago she had 6 babies, which I see is uncommon for robos (with an average of 2-4 babies most sources I've seen).
Everything had been fine up until now, even though it was her first pregnancy. But two days ago one baby was found dead, with no visible damage. I assumed it was just a fluke, but today I found another dead. I know she wasn't singling them out, because I had seen her feed all of them together yesterday. Also there are no marks on this one either, and he doesn't look particularly malnourished (by that I mean he looks like all the others, which don't look very bony or skinny).
Anyways (sorry for the long intro) I was wondering if this is normal for Roborovskis, as I've seen other sites that say it is common for any hamster to eat their young, and for other breeds to lose babies up to half of the babies unexpectedly. But I haven't been able to find anything about Robo babies dying for no apparent reason.
I haven't touched them directly, I have used latex-free exam gloves without powder to look at them a few times, and to move them over to her while she was feeding (and apparently ignoring one or two) and she would always take them from my gloved hand and put them below her to feed. This was all in the first 5 or 6 days. Now it seems she doesn't keep them warm or feed them as much. I've kept everything the same in the cage and haven't changed it since they were born. I left the male in as he didn't seem to get in her way and helped to keep them warm the first 5 or 6 days, now he seems to not care either. I assumed he might have been bothering her, so I tried taking him out. She immediately started jumping around, looking everywhere and pawing at the tank walls. So I put him back in, for fear that she was going to freak out. I only place the wheel in the cage for a few hours a day, because it seems like they bring the babies over by it and then go crazy and fly off of it onto them and run all over them.  
Sorry that I'm writing so much, but I want to make sure that I don't leave anything out. She doesn't even seem to be feeding them that much anymore. Anything you could help me with would be great. The first baby seems less pink than the other but still soft and not stiff at all. Now the second one still looks the same as the others, but he is a little stiff. I have been taking out the dead with gloves. I just don't want anymore to die, so if there's anything I can do please tell me. I can basically take care of them from about 4 pm until 6 am anytime after that I am sleeping (I know, weird schedule). It's just odd to me because she was so good with them up until a few days ago. And I haven't changed any of the conditions they live in. Thank you in advance.


ANSWER: Hi Nick

Sorry to hear you're having problems with your robos.

There are a few issues here:  firstly I'm afraid that your female is probably pregnant again - they mate on the day of giving birth!  So that means in about 11 days you'll have another litter!

6 babies is a large litter, and sometimes the mums just don't want to be mums.  It is very sad when they don't want to feed or take care of their babies and in the early stages it is vital that they get their mothers milk.  However, you can do something to help - make sure the babies are warm. If necessary, if you see any out of the nest warm them in your hands and pop them back in the nest.  In a few days they will start leaving the nest anyway to get food.  

It is OK to handle the babies at this age without any gloves, providing you handle all of them and also the mum and dad so that your scent is everywhere.  Give them a lot of attention too.  I have recently taken on a single Syrian - she was one of 6 and the mum decided she didn't want the litter and ignored them, and very sadly they died one at a time as they were so young and couldn't be helped.  The one that was left is very small and nervous, hence the reason why I ended up with her (I take all the 'unhomeable' ones).  In your case, 10 days is good - they are still too young to survive without their mum, you just need to somehow get them through the next week or so - every day they can hang on, the better.  

You can contact your vet and see if they can help -they should have a powdered milk that is specially designed for orphaned animals.  Don't give them cows milk as they can find this difficult to digest.  Instead, if your vet is nice they may let you have a few spoonfuls of this powdered milk - mix a small quantity with water and using a dropper bottle try to feed the babies.  Don't over feed - just a few drops every hour or so and make sure the milk is warm/room temperature - not ice cold.  The mum might be feeding them more than you think, so you don't want to give them too much.  You can also help the mum by making sure she is getting plenty of nourishment: get hold of some human baby food (the powdered type - porridge oats, rice etc. that is designed for babies 4-6 months).  Mix it with water and put it on a jam jar lid - the parents will eat this and when the babies start leaving the nest if it is in a low enough dish they will eat it too. DOn't put huge quantities down for the mum - just a small spoonful daily/alternate days as you don't want her unborn babies growing too large otherwise this too can cause complications during birth.  If you can't get hold of the powdered milk from your vet, you could water some of this baby food down a bit so it goes through a dropper, or put it on a spoon and hold the babies so they can take it.  Also, make sure the water supply is low enough for the babies - you may need to put two water bottles in the cage/tank.  

If the wheel is causing problems, for the time being I would suggest removing it.

With regard to the male - you need to make a decision about him.  If the female is pregnant again it is vital you get the male out of the cage before she produces the next litter otherwise you will be caught in this never ending cycle.  Ideally you want the males from her first litter to live with him, otherwise if you take him out of the cage now you may not be able to introduce them to each other at a later date.  Also, I note that you said that she gets a bit panicky if you remove him.  You could take a chance on this and hope for the best, alternatively, if the cage/tank you have them in is large enough another option is to somehow divide it in two - so in effect you've got a cage within a cage.  This way they will still smell each other through the bars so the female shouldn't get too distressed but the male will be on his side and the female and her litter on the other.  Once the first litter is 3 1/2 - 4 weeks old you can separate the boys and put them in with the dad. Again, if the cage you currently have them in is large enough you might be able to keep the dad and boys in one half until the other litter is old enough and then see if you can put the boys from the second litter in with them!  This way you'll end up with only 2 cages/tanks, otherwise you're going to end up with 3.  

Are you able to sex the hamsters?  If not, I suggest you ask your vet if they can do this for you rather than the pet shop that made the mistake in the first place!  The boys from the first litter (and second litter) MUST be removed at age 31/2 - 4weeks old otherwise they can mate too - they become sexually active any time from 4 weeks.

If having 2 or 3 cages wasn't your long term plan - then I suggest you contact the pet shop where you bought them from and see if they will take back any of the babies when they are 5 or 6 weeks old.

Apologies for such a long email but I wanted to try and cover all areas.  I hope this makes sense to you - if you want any clarification, please let me know.

Good luck


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank You for the quick response, but it seemed that I was worried for a good reason. The rest of them started to die shortly after I wrote to you and the last one finally died at about 4 am this morning. It seemed like she wasn't even making milk at all or the babies weren't hungry. I've actually come up with a theory that the babies were compacted. I noticed that the glue on the corners of the tank (aquarium) was eaten away in some places. I wouldn't have kept them in there if I had heard anything about this. I'm assuming the mother ate it and it passed into them through the breast milk. The mother would lay next to them and they wouldn't attempt to even look for the nipples. Before they would even try and eat from the dad. I don't know what else it could've been. Yesterday before your reply I went to the pet store and got a bottle with a very thin nipple attachment and replacement breast milk for kittens. They would eat this. I'd put a drop on their mouths while holding them upright so it wouldn't get in their nose. I started giving them about a drop or two each after there were only 3 left out of the original 6. Then about 4 hours later I thought i should try and feed them again and I found one more dead, then another within minutes. I waited so long to feed them again because the mother and father were with them sleeping and apparently keeping them warm, but definitely not feeding them. At this point with one left, I tried to do anything i could to help him. By the way they had all been moving way less than they were a couple of days ago, however  they were developing well as they had the first coat of thick hair on their backs, had pretty well formed ears and were very vocal sometimes. Anyways I took the one out and tried to give him more milk but he didn't seem to want it so I wiped it off his face and held him in my hands for about 3 hours. He was moving but not much. He started to open his mouth and stick out his tongue like he was gagging so I turned him on his side in case he was choking or throwing up. He stopped then a couple seconds later did it again for a good 5 seconds then he basically just stopped breathing. The father could have impregnated her, I wasn't watching that closely then, I was attempting to leave them to their own devices. But since a few days ago, I have been almost constantly watching (I'm only taking an online class at the moment, so I'm honestly around all the time). Do you think it was the aquarium sealant? Or maybe it was just because she was young and then got pregnant again? Again I didn't intentionally get her pregnant the store advertised as two females. Also one thing I forgot to say is, I noticed that about a week before the babies were born, the fathers testicles dropped. Before that point I couldn't see them, which is part of the reason I didn't know one was a male. So I assume that they are close to the same age, since I bought them at the same time. Which would mean that she got pregnant at a very, very young age. Again I would've never got her pregnant if I had known the circumstances. I definitely have the space; I have one 10 gallon with the male and female in it. Another 10 gallon with one white-faced male (who hasn't been anywhere near them since I noticed the mating behavior) They all originally lived well together, but then when the regular male began courting the female he started getting mean to the white-faced (even though he was just ignoring them). So I separated them. I have another 7 1/2 gallon set up in case I had to remove the male and another empty 10 gallon. Making more room isn't a problem for me. I was planning on putting the male babies with the dad, and the females with the mom. It seemed like the parents would be less upset about being separated, if their kids were with them. I can buy another cage specifically for the babies and mother. I know that's a lot of information but in case she is pregnant again, I want to make sure I do my best so none die. Thank you for the quick feedback and it was very clear.
ANSWER: Sorry to hear about the babies all dying. I've given your email some thought and the most feasible answer I've come up with is that perhaps the mum is suffering from mastitis - in  that the mammary glands are swollen due to some sort of infection caused by a bacteria. The mother tends to produce bloody milk, and it is very painful for her to nurse her young and therefore she refuses to.  Also, they wouldn't want to drink bloody milk.  In this case the babies either die one at a time due to malnutrition or cannabalism.    The problem is, by the time this condition is detected, it can be too late as antibiotics are needed and they take time to kick in.  Based on what you have told me, this definitely sounds possible.

If you can examine her, have a look to see if her nipples are swollen, hot, tender, englarged - is there any discharge that looks bloody?  If so, I would advise you getting her to a vet who can prescribe a broad spectrum antibiotic.  If you wait for her to have another litter, and this is the reason why the babies died, you will go through the same ordeal again, I'm afraid.  Survival of babies when the mother has mastitis is rare - but you might be able to pre-empt that now and get her treated so that if she does produce another litter they stand a better chance.

You are right in that if she does have another litter, the girls can live with the mum, and the boys with dad.  There is never any guarantee with robos/Russian hamsters that they are going to get along and there is always the possibility that you might have to separate them, - but on the other hand, if they can live together they do love to be in colonies.

If you get her examined now by a vet I think that would be your best option - also keep an eye on her to check if she is pregnant - so you are ready next time if there are any complications.  With regard to the male, can you fence him off in the tank so that they don't mate again?

Let me know how you get on.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thats seems possible, although I have looked at her recently and I can't even detect the nipples at all. I do remember however, about a week ago she was on her back for some reason and the male was cleaning her stomach (not genitals though, I would've separated them so they wouldn't mate) and I could see a flesh colored ball (what I assumed to be a nipple) which was fairly large about the size of her nose, maybe a tad bit smaller. It was not bloody or leaking but the male went to that part of her and I'm assuming he licked or bit it and she ran away immediately. I just put her in a glass jar and looked at her under belly and i cant even see the nipples all that is there is four spots where the hair seems to part. Definitely no blood or moisture or anything odd. But it does seem odd to me that they aren't more visible. Do you think maybe she isn't lactating anymore, can that happen, because that's what seems to be happening. Also she seems happy playing with the male and I've been observing them closely and she doesn't seem to be tending to any pain down there. Also as a side note how many nipples do they have is it 4, I was just wondering. I'll definitely try to get some kind of clear plastic or glass they can't bite at to separate the male from her. I just spent about 3 hours scraping every bit of aquarium adhesive off of the tank, so if that was hurting them, that wont be problem anymore. Thank you for responding so quickly each time, and you've been a great help. You don't have to feel obligated to respond again (unless I've said something very wrong) I just wanted to let you know after all of your help.

Answer
I've never bred robos/Russians - but certainly Syrian females have 8 nipples and I would have expected the dwarf hamsters to have the same.  Maybe this is the problem - if only one developed enough to produce milk, then she was unable to feed her babies.

Maybe this is something that we will never know.  Glad she's getting on with her partner.

Good luck - any problems with the next litter (if there is one) please feel free to get back in touch.