Foreign, Regional Cat Breeds and

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Date: 4/19/05 5:28 PM

Hello. I have more cat breed questions for you:
Are Abyssainians, and Egyptian Maus found all over Africa?
Is the Sokoke or African Shorthair only found in Kenya, or is it only found in Kenya?
Is the Somali found in Africa?
Are there any Belgian, Dutch or Austrain cat breeds that were created or devolped in their respective areas?
What cat breeds are related to wildcats (bobcats, cougars, panthers, jaguars, etc.)?
The American Keuda is a new breed that was developed in Texas. I recall you saying that cats in the Old West were "wild", but were there any cat breeds that cowboys and Native Americans helped create or develop?
Besides the Munchkin, are there any other breeds that were created in The South? In the Midwest? In the Rocky Mountain areas? In other rural areas?
Please let me know. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Jason Goldman
JGoldman10@yahoo.com



Answer -
Jason,

On some of these, I will have to get back to you later.

Abyssinians, Egyptian Maus, and Somalis are NOT African cats!!!!!  Note that exotic name derivations do not necessarily mean the cat was originated in that country or area.  In fact, there is evidence that the Abyssinians and Egyptian Maus originated in southern Asia (around the Bay of Bengal area) and, no, I do not believe you will find these there today. Somalis are the long haired derivative of the Abyssinian.  For a fairly complete history of the Abyssinian, check out

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Harry_Blok/his.htm

Two breeds I will have to look up are the American Keuda (a new one on me) and the African Sokoke.  As always, I will start with the Messybeast web site.

I do not believe there are any breeds peculiar to Belguim, the Netherlands, or Austria, but I can try to check on that.

As for hybrid breeds, there are the Safari (Geofferies Cat) cat, the Bengal (Asian Leopard Cat), the Chausie (Felis Chaus), the Savannah (the Serval).  The Messybeast web site has a complete listing of these.

As far as I know, American cowboys and Native Americasn would not have been interested in developing cat breeds.  Formal recognition of cat breeds is a fairly recent development (stemming form the mid 19th Century in U.K. and USA). There are breeds of cats that due to isolation or unique coat color and patterns, body types, or coat textures were developed.

In the USA, the Burmese was developed in San Francisco from naturally occuring cats found in Indo-China.  The American Wirehair was a natural mutation discovered, originally, on a farm.  The American Curl was discovered as a natural mutation in California.  The Selkirk Rex is another natural mutation discovered in the USA.  The LaPerm is another natural mutation.  The American Bobtail was developed intentionally.

In the U.K. both the Scottish Fold, Cornish Rex, and Devon Rex were all discovered out of the feral population on farms in their respective areas (i.e Scotland, Cornwall, and Devonshire).  The so called German Rex appears to be the same coat gene mutation as the Cornish Rex.

I would suggest doing a google search on each of the breeds as most of these breeds do have one or more breed web sites.

This way you can do quite a bit more research on your own.

BTW, if you come across a good defintion of breed, please let me know.  Most of today's breeds do not necessarily have to breed true and the definition of breed seems to be normative to the particular registering body.

Best regards... Norm.

Date: 4/22/05 1:47 PM

Hello. Thank you for responding. You commented that The Egyptian Mau, the Abyssianian and the Somali aren't African cat breeds. I did some research that shows that The Aby and the Egyptian Mau originated in Africa:
Egyptian mau:
http://www.egyptianmaus.co.uk/history.html
http://www.cfainc.org/breeds/profiles/turkish-angora.html

Messybeast says that Abyssianians are African:
http://www.messybeast.com/spotted-cats.html

The Cat Encyclopedia says that the first Aby was sent to England from Abyssiania by Sir Robert Napier in 1868.

A related link:
http://www.aboutyourcat.com/breeds/abyssinian.shtml

I have to do more research on the Somali.

Are these three breeds found all over Africa?

Is there such a breed as the Asian Shorthair, and is found all over Asia?
Is the Oriental Shorthair found all over Asia?
Please let me know. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Mr. Jason Goldman
JGoldman10@yahoo.com

Answer -
Jason,

Whereas the Abyssinian cat was originated from a breeding pair sent from Abyssinia (plus the "Bunny cat" an etablished variety in late 19th century England), there is evidence that Sir Robert Napier got these cats from a broker and that the broker obtained them from Southern Asia. Friends of mine who have been in Egyptian Maus since the early 1970's also inducated that the breed, most probably, did originate in Southern Asia.  It is hard to separate myth from reality with many of these breeds.  However, when tracking geographical genetics, there is evidence that Abyssinians and Egyptian Maus originated from Southern Asia.  I wish I had this at my finger tips, but ther person who researched this has impeccable credentials.

Oriental Shorthairs were developed in the USA from the same roots as the Colorpoint Shorthairs (i.e. Siamese and American (Domestic) Shorthairs). Yes, these breeds have been imported into Asia as part of the Japanese, Hong Kong, Thai, Sinagapore, and burgeoning mainland China cat fancy.

There are a number of breeds native to Asia, in particular Siamese, Korats, the pro-gentors to the Burmese, and, hence Tonkinese, and the Turkish breeds (the Turkish Angoras and the Turkish Vans).

I do have some information on a couple of your other queries which I will provide later this week.

Best regards... Norm.


Date: 4/28/05

Hello. Thank you for responding.

You've said that American breeds weren't established till the 19th century, which is the 1800's-so which American Breeds were established during this time?
Is there such a thing as an Eskimo cat?
Besides the Sokoke, are there any other breeds indigenious to Africa?
I know that Britian played a role in the Aby's development, but did Africans play a part in its development, as well as the Somali and the Egyptian Mau? Are these three breeds found all over Africa?
Please let me know. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Mr. Jason Goldman
JGoldman10@yahoo.com
 
Answer -
Jason,

There was a so-called breed named the Alaskan Snow Cat which was a Chinchilla or Shaded Silver Persian bred to a Somali.

Here is some information I have been able to gather on some of the breeds you were interested in:

Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
  From: Norman Auspitz <auspitzn@yahoo.com>
Subject: Breed Information part 1 of 3 -- European Question

Folks,

This learned group was incredibly helpful as regards my query on
European Shorthairs. So I have 3 more queries, of which this is the first.

So, I am going to ask if anyone knows of any breeds, current or
extinct, originating in Belgium, the Netherlands, and/or Austria?

Subject: Re: Breed Information part 1 of 3 -- European Question

Hi,

There was also a Dutch Rex at some point in time. I will have something
on
that but probably in boxes on the attic....

best, Eric (from Holland)
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Karen
 To: auspitzn@yahoo.com ; catjudges@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 5:51 PM
 Subject: RE: [catjudges] Breed Information part 1 of 3 -- European
Question


 Hi Norman
 Tibetane - longhaired Tonkinese from the Netherlands
 Punjabi - hybrid of the Indian Desert cat - bred in Belgium
 European Albino - white cat of European shorthair type with red yes -
bred
in Belgium
 All of these cats were experimental breeds.
 Nothing from Austria.
 Karen

Subject: Re: Breed Information part 1 of 3 -- European Question

There was (a LONG time ago) a version of hairless cat in the
Austro-Hungarian Empire - century before last.  In the 30's there was
the mortal (well preserved) remains of one in a Vienna Museum, I think.  
Actually, speaking of that, there were spontaneous hairless cats in
France and Morocco in the early 30's ...they died out.
LMB

Subject: Re: Breed Information part 1 of 3 -- European Question


Nothing from Austria that I am aware of - not within my lifetime

...though there is a Bohemian Rex originating from our northern
neighbour - http://www.nordsternchens-katzen.de/Rassen/BohemiaRex.htm

Monika




Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:44:16 -0700 (PDT)
  From: Norman Auspitz <auspitzn@yahoo.com>
Subject: Breed Information part 2 of 3 -- African Question

Folks,

The second query is:

Does anyone know where I can find information about a breed called the
African Sokoke?  All I have seen is:


Bred in Denmark from cats found in Sokoke region of Kenya. Modified
wedge shaped head, tufted ears, almond shaped amber to light green eyes.
Slender, muscular, strongly boned medium-long body and long legs, back
legs longer than forelegs and well angled (a Sokoke characteristic).
Short glossy (not silky) coat. Color is black tabby in a modified classic
tabby pattern; agouti hairs appear in the solid areas, giving a
modified tabby pattern peculiar to the breed (note: similar patterns have
since been noted in UK random-bred cats). There were unfounded theories
that it was a different species than the regular domestic cat. Progressive
breeders intended to use Orientals and Russians to expand the gene pool
while keeping the look. Other breeders dispute the use of outcrosses
and only Sokoke cats imported from the Sokoke district in Kenya (Africa),
whose origins can be officially proved by documents acceptable.
Previously called African Shorthair but is only native to Kenya.

Subject: Re: Breed Information part 2 of 3 -- African Question

Try here,

http://www.kimburu.net

Lone

Lone Lund
Int.FIFe Judge

Subject: Re: Breed Information part 2 of 3 -- African Question

This one's really over to the FIFe people, but they can be a very
attractive cat.  The ones I've met were a bit on the shy side, though
somewhere I have a wonderful photo of Britt's husband, Ole Magna, with
a
male draped around his neck at a seminar in Denmark.  But they're also
in Italy - Flavia Capra, at least, has them.  There's almost a hint of
marbled pattern to them.  God forbid anyone should try to breed them to
other breeds!
LMB

Subject: RE: Breed Information part 2 of 3 -- African Question

I think the Kimburu site is to be recommended
(http://kimburu.net/en-sokokeindex.htm )
and then go to the Sokoke history page.

Britt Hagar Alvestad

Subject: Re: Breed Information part 2 of 3 -- African Question

>Folks,
>
>The second query is:
>
Does anyone know where I can find information about a breed called
the African Sokoke?



http://www.sokoke.dk/
http://www.sokoke-cats.com/
http://kimburu.tripod.com/
--
Ellen Crockett

TICA NW Regional Director

Subject: RE: Breed Information part 2 of 3 -- African Question

The breed is even going into the UK.  I first saw them in Holland about
a
decade ago.  A lady in Neocat was starting to breed them.

Alan



Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
  From: Norman Auspitz <auspitzn@yahoo.com>
Subject: Cat Breeds 3 of 3 -- American Query

Folks,

I ahve been asked about a breed called the American Keuda.  Does anyone
have any more information beyond:


Name derives from 1980's "Kitten Evaluation Under Direct Assessment"
program in Texas, Oklahoma & New Mexico, studying 'type' of cat which
survived as barn cats. Conformation resembles Egyptian Mau with silky
coat, modified wedge head, slightly almond-shape eyes and medium to
large-boned, highly athletic semi-foreign body. Loose skin and loose-jointed
effect, noticeable skin flaps (apron) on belly and under elbows. All
patterns and colours including solids, shaded colors, torbies and tabbies.
Colourpoints may have ventral stripe (from belly flap to chest) in same
colour as points. Only Texas/Oklahoma ranch cats from single,
established gene pools (i.e. no new cats since 1980) can be used in foundation
registry, no outcrosses to established breeds. Unknown if Egyptian Mau
contributed to pre-1980 gene pool. Miniature versions are being bred.

Subject: Re: Cat Breeds 3 of 3 -- American Query

Thank you Ellen for this link!
But tell me please... are we really to regard these cats, lovely as
they
might be, as a breed? I am sorry but I feel we are being had here...

bye, Eric
************

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ellen Crockett" <vicrock@cris.com>
To: <catjudges@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [catjudges] Cat Breeds 3 of 3 -- American Query


>
>>Folks,
>>
>>I ahve been asked about a breed called the American Keuda.  Does
>>anyone have any more information beyond:
>>
>>
>>Name derives from 1980's "Kitten Evaluation Under Direct Assessment"
>>program in Texas, Oklahoma & New Mexico, studying 'type' of cat
>>which survived as barn cats. Conformation resembles Egyptian Mau
>>with silky coat, modified wedge head, slightly almond-shape eyes and
>>medium to large-boned, highly athletic semi-foreign body. Loose skin
>>and loose-jointed effect, noticeable skin flaps (apron) on belly and
>>under elbows. All patterns and colours including solids, shaded
>>colors, torbies and tabbies. Colourpoints may have ventral stripe
>>(from belly flap to chest) in same colour as points. Only
>>Texas/Oklahoma ranch cats from single, established gene pools (i.e.
>>no new cats since 1980) can be used in foundation registry, no
>>outcrosses to established breeds. Unknown if Egyptian Mau
>>contributed to pre-1980 gene pool. Miniature versions are being bred.
>>
>>TIA & best regards... Norm.
>>
>>
> http://www.hercurian.com/keuda/
> --
> Ellen Crockett
>
> TICA NW Regional Director

Subject: Re: Cat Breeds 3 of 3 -- American Query

Agreed!  And it was that last sentence....miniatures are being bred.

You know, even after only six months of being here in South Africa I
know
that I can go to the garage at Colchester just outside Port Elizabeth
where
there is a large and troublesome colony of cats that Cat Care is
trapping
and neutering.  They are very distinctive in appearance.  Advise me,
please....do you think I should rush off and get a couple of males and
some
females and create a new breed for South Africa?  Colchester is in the
Addo
National Park so we could call it the Addonis.

Am I being cynical in thinking that we have more to do to get our
existing
breeds right.

Oooh!  I have a nice story about Sokokes.  A judge (who shall be
nameless)
officiating at a show "sur le Continong" asked at Best in Show, "What's
a
Brown Tabby housecat doing there?"....."Shhhhh! It's a Sokoke!"  I
laughed
so much I thought my stays would explode!



Alan Edwards

From: Amanda Bright
Subject: Re: Cat Breeds 3 of 3 -- American Query

I suppose the point is that some people are representing them as a
breed--regardless of whether they are recognized by a legitimate
registering body.  To me, there is nothing distinctive about them (or certainly
nothing that appears in the standard) and the standard really does
nothing to create an image in my mind.  

Eric Reijers <nlpendragon@iol.cz> wrote:Thank you Ellen for this link!
But tell me please... are we really to regard these cats, lovely as
they
might be, as a breed? I am sorry but I feel we are being had here...

bye, Eric
************

Subject: Re: Cat Breeds 3 of 3 -- American Query

>Thank you Ellen for this link!
>But tell me please... are we really to regard these cats, lovely as
they
>might be, as a breed? I am sorry but I feel we are being had here...

Well, anyone can call anything a breed  - it remains to be seen
whether they will progress to "official" status.
--
Ellen Crockett

TICA NW Regional Director


Date: 4/5/05 1:50 PM

Hello. Thanks for responding. You still didn't answer these questions:
I know that Britian played a role in the Aby's development, but did Africans play a part in its development, as well as the Somali and the Egyptian Mau? Are these three breeds found all over Africa?

Please respond soon. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Jason Goldman
JGoldman10@yahoo.com
Answer -
Jason,

Essentially I thought I had answered these questions for the most part in earlier posts.

Friends of ours who have grown up in the middle east have told us that they have NEVER seen anything like an Abyssinian, Egyptian Mau or Somali on the streets of anywhere in Egypt!

It appears that Africa only had a passing role in the development of the Abyssinian and thus the Somali.  The Egyptian Mau probably also had little to do with Africa.  There is strong geological genetic evidence that the cats sent to Britain during the Abyssinian war came from a broker who, most probably, got them from southern Asia.  The Somali is a long haired version of the Abyssinian and came out of Abyssinian lines.  I am less versed on the Egyptian Mau, but friends of mine were getting them from India over 30 years ago.  For all intents and purposes, the Abyssinian breed was developed in Britain in the late 1800's and early 1900's.  Somalis were developed primarily in Canada and the USA from longhaired variants showing up in Abyssinian lines.  The Somali really came to the forefront in the mid 1970's.

Now, in South Africa, where there is a strong cat fancy, these breeds are found. I would venture to say that these breeds would be scarce in any part of Africa that did not have a strong cat fancy.  

Best regards... Norm.

Date: 4/5/05 4:14 PM

Thank you. What is the name, address and contact info for that cat fancy in South Africa? Please let me know.

Sincerely,
Mr. Jason Goldman
Jgoldman10@yahoo.com

Answer -
Jason,

I would start with:

"Alan Edwards" <doorman57@hotmail.com>


Alan Edwards
PO Box 16571
Emerald Hill
Port Elizabeth 6011
Republic of South Africa


Best regards... Norm.


Date: 4/11/05 3:10 PM
Hello:

I managed to acqire a copy of an Oxford African Encyclopedia, and it said that some cat breeds found there are the Siamese, Persian, and Angora.
Are there any African wild cats that have been bred and raised as pets? Please let me know. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Mr. Jason Goldman
JGoldman10@yahoo.com


Answer -
Jason,

I really do not know anything about people keeping wild cats as pets except that I look at that as a very questionable practice given the rarity of many of the species.  Also, one must really know what they are doing to keep any wild animal as a pet.  I am totally against the practice of keeping wild cats as pets.

I am afraid I cannot help you with this particular query.

Best regards... Norm.

Date: 4/17/05 1:54 PM

Hello:

Thanks for responding. Do you have any contact info about catteries in Kenya?
Please let me know. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Mr. Jason Goldman
JGoldman10@yahoo.com

Answer -
Jason,

This is, hopefully, the last follow up!

You might do two things to locate catteries in Kenya.  (1) Ask Mr. Alan Edwards the question. (2) Follow some of the Sokoke links to see about African sources of this breed.  I believe I recall there being someone in Kenya who may be breeding these.

Best regards... Norm.

Date: 4/17/05 4:35 PM

Hello:

Thank you for responding. Actually, I have one more question for you related to this topic:

You said that the Africans had a passing role in the development of the Abyssianain, Egyptian Mau and Somali. Could you please elaborate?
Thanks again.
Sincerely,
Mr. Jason Goldman
JGoldman10@yahoo.com  

Answer
Jason,

The African connection was with the Abyssinian (and a posteriori, the Somali).  I do not know about the Egyptian Mau.

The connection was that the Abyssinian pair sent to the United Kingdom did come from Abyssinian (in Africa), but the feeling was they were acquired from a broker who got them from southern Asia. Other than this, I know of no modern African involvement in the breed.

As an aside, you might want to research "Frank's Aby" which is in a museum in the Netherlands.

I am sorry if I mislead you.

Best regards... Norm.