wasting platy

Question
QUESTION: Hello !!

My tank is 4 weeks, 3 days old. The Ph and hardness tested consistently for three weeks, so I've gone to checking only ammonia (nitrate/nitrite test strips). (Is that ok ?) It is a 20 gallon tank.

I would never add fish again more than one at a time or without preventative melafix treatment (currently I have no quarantine tank) but I have had up to 14 fish in my tank (following guidelines for adding fish that came with my tank) and now I'm down to 5. The last one to die was about a week and a half ago. My tank has been medicated with melafix and coppersafe. I'm finished with the melafix for now, the coppersafe has been in for a week and a half to two weeks. I had removed the active charcoal and that left only my biological sponge filter during the melafix treatment, and in ignorance, because of all of the disease, I did away with my sponge and now have had a new one for only four days. The ammonia seems already to have peaked and fallen, perhaps because of the old water/beneficial bacteria already present in the tank in the rocks and on artificial plants etc. ?

So ... currently I have three platys, one guppy, and one black molly. One of the platys just gave birth to 20 fry which I have in a floating plastic breeder box (with artificial plant cover inside) in the same tank. They are a week old and I haven't lost one yet despite my 'cycling trauma'.

I have had aquarium salt added since almost the beginning - recommended amount on container, and the temperature is between 76 and 78 degrees F. With water changes, I have added back the correct amount of salt and now coppersafe.

Any suggestions you have regarding the fry or anything about tank maintenance are welcome ... I've done regular water changes and as I said, I think I'm towards the end of my second 'cycling' ... my nitrates are at 20 ppm, nitrites at 1ppm, decreasing.

So ... my main question is about one of my platys. It started hiding about three weeks ago when the first few fish died. And has hidden increasingly until I'm not sure it has even been eating. It used to come out at feeding times, but has stopped. yesterday when I realized how much it seemed to have wasted, I put it in an empty breeder box. It keeps itself 'upright' (not fallen over on it's side) by resting in the grate at the bottom of the breeder box. It will swim to the top to feed when I put food in. But spends the rest of the time resting on the bottom. Breathing is definitely labored. I can't see any external signs of disease. Just the hiding, severe wasting, and also I noticed the few times it did swim freely in the tank, it twitches and jerks.

I got some medicated food today - in case it is internal parasites. But I wondered about fish tuberculosis. None of the other fish seem ill in the least - they are all the healthiest they've been since I've had them - the molly even seems to have come back from the brink of death after the melafix treatment was finished and the coppersafe was added (but has white gills - is this normal ? nothing hanging out of gills, just white) Since the other fish seem so healthy and this one has been acting strangely for so long - can I assume that all will be well with parasite treatment ? Or do you think it's fish TB and the whole tank is doomed ? Do I need to take immediate action of any kind  (besides trying the medicated food) ? My mom is bringing me a two gallon tank this weekend which I was considering for a short time for the fry. Should I make it a hospital tank instead ? Or is that too small ?

Thank you very much - I am so very grateful for your site and for all of your knowledge and experience.
Jennifer Whiteford




ANSWER: You have quite the question here Jennifer. I will attempt to help you. Well, first I would definately not have recommended treating the tank unless there is definate signs of illness. I have had alot of questions about medications and my answer is the same every time, even though some fish benefit and survive though the use of a treatment, some on the other hand can die from the stress the treatment gives them. It all starts when the fish is sick or diseased, the stress of the disease is enough but than treatment is added and some fish, in my experience most, just cannot survive it. While I do keep in mind that this does not mean to never treat, it just means that treatment can sometimes have a bad result. I have medicated fish who did fantastic and I have medicated fish who have dies within a day of the treatment. It all depends on the progression of the disease, if it is in the early stages or the fish is super strong than treatment will work, if not, than death incures. There is no way to know whether to treat or not, it is simply a matter of if the disease is severe or not, which usually cannot be measured. Also, one cure for one of the most common tank diseases, ick, is a higher temp. A temp of around 80-82, perfectly fine for most tropical freshwater fish, usually prevents and eliminates ick. I have tested this and it usually works. Now to your problem specifically. From what I can gather your treated your tank while adding fish, even before disease was present? This would not have been my recommendation. I would have gotten the healthiest fish I could have and seen how they did in a few days, always keeping close watch on them. If they developed a disease I would then treat but if not, they are fine. Remember, if you can NO treatment is the BEST treatment. One other thing I noticed is that you said you had 14 fish in a 20 gallon tank, this is overstocked. I would not advise this, even if the fish are small. If you kept mollies, guppies, and platys I would recommend only getting a total of 10 fish, MAX. The reason I say this is, first they are dirty fish, especially the platys and mollies. They produce a large amount of waste and thus polute the water and this requires weekly cleaning. But if you lower your fish inhabitants than you can manage the tank better and provide a healthier, roomier environment for the fish. They will be far happier if there is more room. Also, if you are going to add the salt, even with the recommended does on the box and the water changes, I would make sure you dont add too much. I know mollies prefere salt but I am not so sure about guppies. Even if they all do, you should keep it to a minimum and mostly only use it for treatment, if always use it sparingly. I am sorry but I do not know much at all about the fish TB, I just found out myself that fish can have it. I will do some research to brush up on it but since I know little I have no idea if it is the problem, although I dont assume it is, from what I have known it is rare but of course possible. While a quarantine tank is a good idea, I know not everyone has the time nor money to run one. I dont even have one. I just make sure I find a good fish store and pick my fish out, to make sure they dont have existing issues. Other than that I place them in the tank, after following acclimation recommendations, and watch them till they acclimate for the next few days. In your case I would clean my tank and do partial water changes every day or so to slowly remove the left over treatments, assuming the fish have no diseases visible. I would also buy a brand new sponge and filter and place that in the tank only after the water has been changed to remove medicine. Then I would work at finding a better fish store. I realize not many people have good places by them, I only have one, but it is important to find one other than the one you got your fish who died from. Since they all had the problem, they were not healthy to begin with, so you really should find a new one. Even if you have to travel a few more miles, it is far worth it to go the extra mile, so to speak. I would focus on getting everything back to normal and take it slow. Patience is something that tanks require. When we try to keep naturally wild fish in a home tank there is bound to be probs but with patience and TLC, it can be done. Sometimes it is really a pain but in the end to see the beautiful tank doing fantastically and the fish happy is amoung the best of feelings. Let me know if you need more information or if you have more questions or concerns.
         Rachel A.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Sorry I gave incomplete information about why I had medicated my tank. I started out with two fish for cycling my tank (wouldn't do that again), but added five more fish a week later, and six more fish the week after that (would never do that again, either). I realize NOW that is a recipe for disaster. At the time I was following guidelines that came with my tank and listening to the pet store person. And it's hard to remember precisely when what happened to which fish now, but I medicated my tank first of all with Melafix because the first few fish that died (died right after adding the first several new fish to the tank - all had been well up until then) had whitish clearish tissuey stuff hanging off of them (which had to have been extremely fast-growing because it wasn't visible until the fish were nearly dead) and the person at the fish store, looking at my dead fish, recommended that's what I use. Then even with the melafix treatment, several more fish died and the conclusion I was coming to was velvet after more reading and closer inspection of the fish. My black molly (who I now know shouldn't even be in the tank with my platys)seemed to be following suit with the others and one person at the store who I do consider very knowledgeable, listening to how the fish looked, how some of the other fish were acting when they died, and listening to how my molly was behaving recommended coppersafe to treat for velvet. I think most of the fish did have velvet. What I had been reading about fish diseases matched up with what the store clerks said both of these times, so I went ahead with the treatments. Reading and asking questions of people who are supposed to know more than me ... that's all I know to do. So I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't just do those treatments out of the blue ...I used Mela-fix for what looked like a bacterial/fungal infection (I also had some fin and tail rot), and Coppersafe for velvet. And my molly seems to have bounced back 100%. Now I just have to figure out what to do with her. More tanks are not an option and she's a bully in this tank.

I do realize that my fish were more proned to disease because of the nitrites and the cycling and the stress of how quickly everything was done. From now on, I'll go with my gutt and with sound scientific information and not what impatient husbands and children and simple pet store intructions say, but I've done all I can so far to 'better myself' and will continue.

My nitrites are almost back down to zero, my fry are doing great, the other fish are acting healthier than ever, and the sick one is in a breeder box where I can watch and feed her and I am going to give her medicated food per the directions on the bottle because with my limited experience, I don't know how to be any surer sbout treating her for possible internal parasites. I've read a lot and it just seems like all it could be. Severe wasting, hiding, twitching, and now I can see that she may be peeling a bit possibly from scratching, and she has white stringy poop.

So ... Thank you so much for answering my question. Sorry I didn't give full background - but there it is.

I have learned a lot. If I could start all over, I would, but I'm just making the best of a bad situation. Very sad when you do what you think is best at the time because of misinformation, and it turns out to be wrong. I feel horrible about being an irresponsible, uninformed fish keeper.

Thank you again, Jennifer

Answer
Please be assured, Jennifer, you have not been an irresponsible pet owner. Every new fish person needs to learn and I think they only way sometimes is by experience. Yes, it does sound like it was a fungal infections, probably velvet or just a fungus. I am sorry you have had such a bad first experience, dont let it stop you from eventually enjoying fish. I am pretty knowledgable in freshwater and decided to go to saltwater, to take a step up. Well, WOW, was I in for a surprise. Completely different! Thankfully I have managed to get my tank stable, also due to using this site for advice, and it is doing pretty good. I have two beautiful clown fish, one star coral, one tree coral, one yellow goby, and one hugh turbo snail, its pretty awesome. But be assured, nearly everyone who starts a tank, even those who are experienced, have a time when the tank is setting up and things happen. Surprisingly enough, even though the water conditions may be good the tank may not be completely cycled. One thing that I get impatient about is adding the fish. It is recommended to wait at least 3-4 weeks! That to me is too long, but I have noticed when I do wait an extra time my tanks do far better than when I get impatient. I just hope you continue trying to make the tank a beautiful center piece for your home. If you would like information on anything else, please feel free to ask. I would be happy to assist you. I would think twice before going back to the fish store you got your old fish from though, while there may be a knowledgable person there the fungus is not a good sign. If you have another place near by, by all means go there. Also, keep in mind, no matter what you buy next, look at it in the store before you buy it. Watch it for a while (5-10 mins) and see how it behaves. Usually you can tell if the fish is sick or not. Watch out for signs like: white salt-like spots, dark irregular spots, filmy scales or gills, dull appearance, darting on rocks or gravel or anything really, sluggish swimming, and cloudy eyes. Chances are, but not always, if you get a healthy good looking fish you will not have the problem you have. As for the molly, I love mollies but I have discovered that they are a bit messy and sometimes mean. If you are dedicated to keep it, which is completely fine, some options I can think of are to add more mollies, add cory catfish (great gravel cleaners/bottom feeders), one dwarf gourami could be added, obviously algae eaters, and fish like danios. Oh, I forgot to add earlier in reference to where to get fish, I once got fish from a major fish store chain and I had a perfect 30 gallon tank with a beautiful angelfish and two cory cats in it and wanted to add more fish, well I added some from that major chain store and all my fish died. I had the tank going for years and had the angel for over 6, so it wasnt my tank that did it. You really have to be careful where you get your fish, a small independently owner place is always better than a big chain place. But of course I understand not everyone has that available. Finally, to the platy who is still sick. It does sound like he has an internal parasite maybe combined with a fungus. It also sounds like he may be too far gone and is just holding on. If he doesnt get better soon, I would advice ending the struggle for him. If he has such symptoms which are advanced, the chances of him surviving, in my experience, is small. But of course, he is yours and I know how I can get attached to fish so it is just my advice. Follow your own thoughts as to how to deal with him if he doesn get any better. Also, even when you go to a small private fish store, sometimes they just want to sell you stuff to up profits, so always educate yourself before you go about the fish you want or are thinking about and consider other options. Feel free to ask questions at the store but dont rely soley on the person's advice. I have learnt that the hard way also. It sounds like you have taken a good step by educating yourself and I hope all works out. Let me know how things go and if you have more questions.
         Rachel A.