baby mouse fur loss continued

Question
QUESTION: My name is Kim Ramsey.  I found your webpage last night and thought I would ask you a question I have about my mouse.  My husband and I found 3 orphaned baby mice about 2 weeks ago. We right away called our local animal rescue, but they do not take in mice, but they did advise us how to care for them, and also recommended I check the internet for care instructions.  I got online right away and found that a few websites suggested Baby Soy Formula to be the formula of choice.  I have also read that Kitten Milk Replacement can be used to, but I read that the Soy formula is better for them.  So that is what I have been feeding them.  Since we've had them 2 of them have died, but one of them is still with us.  They opened their eyes 1 day after we found them (and I read that opening their eyes meant they were 2 weeks old), so that was 2 weeks ago, so I'm guessing the one we have left is about 4 weeks old now.  He is doing very well and is eating out of a dish and also eating rodent block (kaytee brand), and little bits of carrot, and apple. I had tried avocado at first and then later found out that it's not that great for them so I stopped that right away.  Also I gave him a piece of strawberry one day, but he didn't seem to eat a lot of it, so I just do carrots, and apple as treats, and try to have him mostly eat rodent block and then I still offer him formula at least twice a day in a little dish.  he seems to still love the formula.  He's pretty strong and plays a lot and is quite fast, he has gotten used to my husband and myself, he crawls right into our hands when we put them in his tank, and he falls right asleep in my little hand. Our initial plan was to release all three back into the wild at about 6 weeks old, but since the other 2 have died, the rescue center where I live said that it is not the best thing to release just one, so they suggested we keep him now as a pet.   We've had no problems with him until recently.  He seemed to have a little red skin near his cheek or under chin area. I thought it might be that he cleaned himself too much and took of the hair, but I took him to PetSmart (they have a vet office there) and the did a tape test on him for mites.  It came back negative, that was this past Friday.  She told me to keep an eye on it and if it spread then to bring him back.  She said she could treat him with a tiny drop of Ivermectin behind his ear, but he is so tiny only 5 grams that she didn't want it to be too potent for him, so we decided to wait on that.  So anyway, over this past weekend my husband and I noticed that his hair loss became worse, his whole belly/chest area was bald over the weekend, and sunday night I told my hubby if it was worse Monday morning I was taking him back in.  Sure enough Monday morning he had lost the hair on one of his sides as well. He also itches/scratches himself a lot, So I took him to the Petsmart vet again, and saw the cheif of staff vet doctor who has seen many mice and exotics over the years. He said he has treated over a thousand mice/rats.  He said he is so tiny, but he would try to do a scrap test for mites.  He managed to do the scrap test and it came back negative for mites again.  He said that doesn't mean he doesn't have them, he said the hair loss and redness looked like mites to him.  He said he normally treats mites with an injection of ivermectin, but he wasn't sure with him being so small, so he suggested we do a tiny drop of ivermectin behind his ear instead of the injection.  I was so nervous about the ivermectin, I have read horror stories online about the injections killing mice, and being too strong, so I am praying the tiny drop behind the ear instead of the injection won't hurt him at all.  I brought him home last night and already noticed the baldness on his sides getting worse, so far he still has back hair, but I'm afraid that might be gone soon too. This morning he seems to be doing ok, the baldness on the side has spread a little more, but not drastic and so far seems ok and eating well.  They told me about washing all his bedding, cleaning the tanks etc, so I will do that.  They said to bring him in once a week for a total of 4 ivermectin drops.   My questions for you are as follows:

First - Is ivermectin safe for him (yesterday he had gone from 5 grams on Friday to 8 grams yesterday in weight) I want to be sure the ivermectin is safe.  I did read online that there is a safer way to give ivermection, it is in a topical form that is sprayed on.  I have only read about injections and topical, I haven't read about the drop behind the ear like he got today.  So which is best, drop behind ear, or topical spray??  Or are neither safe.  I'm watching him so closely for signs of side effects.  


Secondly - I read that the hair loss could be from a food allergy.  The vet today told me that it is highly unlikely that that is the cause, but I wanted to ask your opinion about that.  Like I said he has tried avocado, but has not had any in about 5 days, and he's tried a piece of strawberry, but it's mostly the rodent block, carrot pieces, apple pieces and the Soy Baby Formula (which I noticed is Iron Fortified - not sure if that is good or not? The brand is Emfamil Soy infant formula iron fortified) He seems to have always done well on the formula and runs for the dish when I put it in his cage.  The vet last Friday suggested I switch to the Kitten milk replacement, but when i offered it to him this past weekend, he drank a little bit, but not a ton, so i went back to the soy.  The vet didn't say soy was bad she had just heard most do the KMR.  I asked the vet today if he could be having a reaction to the formula, and he said it is unlikely since he's been doing fine so far with the soy formula.  Last night I read that sometimes mice can have a reaction to foods and if that is the case to reduce the soy protein that they get.  
That made me think, my goodness could this hairloss be that he is allergic to the soy formula?  
He should only be drinking formula for a little bit longer as I am in the process of weaning him off formula out of the dish all together.
So I am desperate to know which is better for him, soy baby formula, or KMR??  

And could the soy be bothering him all of a sudden?

Not sure if I should try the KMR again just incase it's the soy that's bothering him.

Is it bad to switch his formula at 4 weeks? he's been on the soy for just over 2 weeks.

I hope I haven't been feeding him the soy formula and now it's a problem for him, poor little guy :(Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you so much for your time. I hope my questions were in clear enough order, pretty much want to know about the formula and possible side effects, and the ivermectin drop behind the ear. Sorry this is so long, but I want to do the best possible care for this little guy :)

(And I noticed last night on your site you said there was a death in your family - I wanted to offer my condolences, my extended family has had a recent tragic loss too, so my heart and prayers goes to your and your family)

Take care and thank you,

Kimberly

ANSWER: Dear Kimberly,

I'm not a vet, so I can't give you more advice than my own experience.  I'm an expert on mouse behavior, not medicine.  This means I'm taking a chance answering this because you might downgrade my expertise-- but I hate to refuse a question because of that.  Please understand, and I will answer the best I can.

In my experience the symptoms he is having do sound like mites, but that is not the only possibility.  Mice can get ringworm too, and possibly other fungi as well. There is also something called mange.  The vet probably tested for these, but you should make sure.

I believe the drop of  ivermectin should be safe.  The drop is probably better than a spray, since the spray is ingested by the whole mouse-- anything goes through their skin. My breeder uses a flea and tick spray for mites on his babies younger than 4 weeks, with no problems, so his age shouldn't be a problem.  The ivermectin is also probably far better than this spray, 8 in 1, since it is from the vet.  I suggest continuing with the drops.

If he is eating blocks he has no more need of the formula.   Just because he likes it doesn't mean he needs it (I have to teach myself that when window shopping!).  That solves that problem.

The other common allergy is to the bedding.  If he is using wood chips, try a paper based bedding such as Care Fresh, and vice versa.  There are also other types of bedding, but it's unlikely that he could be allergic to both of these.  

Best of luck to the mouse.  I first found this site when I had a fur loss problem a few years ago, and it was terrible to watch.  I followed some very bad advice from the pet store and on the Internet, which crippled her, so I wanted to help others. She did have mites-- my mistake had been not to treat her cage mates-- and she did regain fur after everyone was treated.

Thank you for your condolences.

Squeaks,

Natasha




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Natasha ~  Thank you so much for your response.  I will ask the vet about the ringworm and mange etc at our appt on Tues.  He seems to be doing ok after the first ivermectin drop so I think I'll continue them since he is still losing hair.  his tummy is completely bald and both of his sides are pretty much bald now too, and it's starting to a tiny bit move to his back.  I keep changing his bedding twice a day.  i have his tank lined with old t-shirts for now, and I take them out and wash them twice a day in HOT water to keep them clean and mite free.  I also wash all of his toys and tank twice a day.  I heard wood chips weren't that great for them, and the pet store recommended CareFresh, I found Critter Care(same thing the vet said) at Walmart for a little cheaper, and I haven't used it yet.  The vet said to wait till we get these mites handled, and he might try to eat the bedding if I put it in now, so he said to wait a little while longer and stick with the soft tshirts.  So eventually I'll do the Critter Care/or Carefresh.

He seems to be acting fine, busy, fast, energetic, at night he is SO fast and plays a TON!  

Also a question about the food stuff.  I think I'll take your advice about no more formula, the vet thought while he was still not feeling too chipper maybe the formula would give him a little more nutrients, but if it is possibly causing the hair loss and he does indeed eat the rodent block, I think I'll stop the formula.  

Today I thought I would check the back of the rodent block bag for ingredients, I bought KayTee Fortified Diet, mouse rat food.  Anyway the ingredients on the back have crushed peanuts listed.  I thought I had read that mice can be allergic to peanuts.  So why would they put crushed peanuts in the blocks?  Could that be the problem?  Should I try another brand of rodent block?  

I also give him pieces of carrot and apple, I hope that is ok?

Also I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with trying to find help.  I too am saddened by the hair loss, but am thankful he seems to feel ok, but I too want to get the best advice and offer him the best possible help that I can,  It is good to hear that the fur should grow back though.  

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it so much, and look forward to hearing your response.

ANSWER: Dear Kimberly,

The peanut thing is a real question.  Many mouse mixes have actual peanuts in them, although peanuts are a common allergy.  On the other hand, wheat and soy are common human allergies but they are ubiquitous.  Maybe the only reason something is a 'common allergy' is that we eat it so commonly that if it's an allergy we find out about it.  In any case, millions of mice must be surviving on these peanut-laced diets, so I don't really worry about it.  Still, you could give him 3-4 days on a very simple, controlled diet of, perhaps, vegetables and grains (cereals), to see if something in the complicated blocks might be causing a problem.  Carrot and apple are great, though too much fruit could give him diarrhea.

I also wanted to mention that some hair loss is completely normal in baby mice raised by hand, but I do not think it gets as extreme, nor should it involve itching, and should occur earlier in their development.  Still I wanted to mention it.

The idea of it being a danger to him to eat the paper litter is a very strange one to me, but I will leave that up to your vet, who has more experience than I do with paper litters, as I usually use wood.  Perhaps very small babies get confused.  

I'm so happy that he is active and alert because that is the #1 most important thing.  You do have to be super careful with him that he doesn't get cold or isn't exposed to anything toxic, since a problem like this can be a terrible strain on his immune system, especially such a little guy.

My little mouse Ultra became completely bald before the problem was identified, but even then, when she was held (I made the mistake of leaving her alone for 2 days, which made her very depressed), she was very happy and made all sorts of happy mouse clicking sounds and purring vibrations.  That's how you know they are happy.  Try a little massage just where cats love it below the ears-- they have a real sweet spot there.

squeaks n giggles,

Natasha

(I dare to put in the giggles when the situation isn't a dire one ; ) )





---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Natasha ~

Thank you for all the information!!  I so much appreciate all the help.  First, I was so glad to read that when they are happy they make clicking sounds.  I haven't heard any purring vibrations, but he does make a clicking sound at times when I'm holding him.  My husband and I wondered what that was, we thought it was his teeth clicking or something, but my heart was happy to read that that meant he is happy, so thank you for sharing that with me :)  

Also I have been keeping him warm.  I leave a warm water bottle in there, covered with a t-shirt and he usually always sleeps on it.  I replace the warm water a several times a day to make sure it is always staying warm.  (not too hot, just warm) I thought for sure with losing hair, he needs all the help he can get to stay warm. When I clean his tank, I never us toxins, just HOT water and mild all natural soap, which I make sure is completely gone and wiped out before putting him and his stuff back in.

Thanks for letting me know that hand raised mice lose hair as well.  That might be the case here, but like you mentioned this hair loss is quite dramatic.

As for the food, I'm at a real wonder about this.  I pretty much have read online that common allergies for mice are sunflower seeds, peanuts, and wheat.  So again on the back of the food bag is listed crushed peanuts AND crushed wheat!!  I couldn't believe it, but you are right about the wheat and soy human allergies thing, so who knows about all this.  

I think I've pretty much narrowed down three possiblities for the hair loss.  Mites, food allergy to the wheat/peanuts, or that he is getting a diet too high in protein.  I read that on funmouse.com   Any one of those could be the problem.  On the funmouse.com they said mice should get about 13% protein in their diet and they said to make sure to read the back of the bags of food because a lot of times the protein is a lot higher than that, and sure enough the back of the bag I have says the protein is 21%.  Of course I don't know in what quantity is 21%, but anyway, up until yesterday I was giving him the rodent block food AND the soy formula, so maybe he was getting way too much protein between the both.  I have stopped the formula since you mentioned that would be best.  Then tonight my husband and I got to thinking that a day or two after he started really eating the rodent block is when he started to have symptoms of the hair problem, and I never put those two things together because I NEVER thought the rodent block/mouse-rat food would be bad for a mouse!!  But looking back it did start then and I have pretty much been feeding him mostly the rodent block and formula with the occasional dry oatmeal, and carrot/apple pieces.  So maybe it is the rodent block.  Anyway, I think it is one of the three things I mentioned, mites, rodent block or too high protein.  The funmouse.com website said that if you think they have food allergies to put them on a rice diet (they said they are rarely allergic to rice) then after doing rice see if he gets better in a week or so, then add a one new food per week and see if he gets a reaction from that food, and continue that gradually. Kind of like what you suggested with the veggies and grains.  So tonight I gave him some cooked instant white rice and he seemed to like it. I'll probably pick up brown rice tomorrow, I'm sure that has more nutrients for him than white rice.  I didn't offer him the rodent block tonight, just the rice and carrot/apple (I really don't think it is the carrot/apple/oatmeal so I offered him a little of that tonight too) I didn't think the rice by itself would be enough nutrients.  I'm planning to leave a little pile of oats for him to munch on during the night tonight instead of the rodent block that I usually leave for him.  I didn't want to leave the rice out all night, I was afraid if he eats too much cooked rice it might bloat his little belly!!  

So I guess I'm going to try to look for another brand of rodent block with out wheat or peanuts and see if that helps.  In the meantime I hope he'll get enough nutrients until I can check all this out with the vet on Tuesday, I'll probably keep him on this rice/carrot/apple/oat diet until then.  
Do you think that is ok?
Do you have a favorite brand of block?  
Have you heard that too high protein can cause hair loss?
How do you know for sure they are getting a well balanced diet?

I feel so bad he keeps losing his hair, but am thankful that he still seems happy.  I'll have to try the spot behind the ears, and see if he loves that, thanks for the tip :)  He already loves curling up in my hand and falling asleep while I wash his little face at night with a kleenex and warm water.  I'm so glad your mouse Ultra made it through her hair loss ordeal.  It's amazing how attached we get to these little cutie pies!!

Thanks again for your help, I'll try to stop asking questions :)  I just keep thinking of a few more each day, sorry :)

Take care,
Kimberly  

Answer
Dear Kimberly,

I don't think you have to be so drastic as to only give him rice.  He needs a more balanced diet than that, and the chances of him having extremely multiple food allergies are extremely slim.  I don't always agree with people on TheFunMouse site, although their discussion can be interesting.  However, the adding of possibly allergenic foods slowly (to your original 4-food blend) is a good idea.  If he has allergies, it probably  isn't a good idea to use a block instead of a mix.  In a mix you pretty much know what you are getting, although there are usually little pellets in it too.  What you might want to do is get a simple mix that seems to have the right ratios of nutrients, and then simply copy and introduce the ingredients, one by one.  It's probably a mix of about ten seeds, which you can reproduce.  I sometimes use Kay-Tee.  Introduce the sunflower seeds last because although they are the favorite of mice, they are a common allergy.  You don't have to wait a whole week between ingredients.  Mice react to things quickly.  Maybe 3 days.  As for the protein, I have no knowledge of that as a problem; I just don't know.  It does seem like 21% is an awful lot more than 13%!

If you want to make yourself crazy as to nutrient ratio, check out this site:

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/homemadediet.htm

But this is more helpful:

http://www.afrma.org/food.htm

My mice have tried a diet like that one but they hated the dog food.  Plus you don't know what is in dog food.  I'd definitely leave that out.  And if you use the biscuits, use a very simple, health-food formula or make your own.  

Remember, mice in the wild eat EVERYTHING and are quite fine.  So, actually, don't make yourself crazy!

Of course he should continue with the ivermectin.  And the love!

squeaks n giggles,

Natasha