mouse sorting and --trouble

Question
QUESTION: Hello,

I was wondering if I could please have your help.
I recently bought 2 male mice from the same litter. I decided to get 2 females as well (that i'm pretty sure were in the same litter) a day or 2 later (stupid idea I know!). I had the 2 male mice in a pet shuttle for the first few days (because I couldnt find a cage for them), and they were fine together (snuggling and everything). Then I bought a great big cage, and put them all in together. Everything went fine for a while, but the male mice started fighting, so I put 1 male and 1 female in the pet shuttle and left the others in the cage. Everything went fine when they were reunited. They had their little fights, and squeaked a lot while fighting (to the point where I was getting a big worried), but I watched them and made sure nothing happend. The other night, they started fighting again and I thought nothing of it, because they always have their little fights, however when I looked in the cage one of the mice was bleeding on both sides of its body (this mouse was the mouse that was the first to try and mate with the girls). I put the mouse that was hurt in the shuttle for that night, because I couldn't get the other one in, but then the next morning switched the hurt one back into the cage with the 2 girls, and the one that did the hurting in the little shuttle (to somewhat punish it, and give the hurt mouse time to snuggle up to the girls). The 2 females are pregnant (I'm pretty sure, as their bellies are getting bigger), which I just discovered last night. And I was wondering, if I bought another cage (a smaller one) and put the 2 females in it, so they could have their babies in a nice cosy place, and reunited the 2 male mice in the big cage (which has a spinning wheel and a "petting area" and a bubble which one of them likes hiding in), and then when the babies are born, after 4 weeks put them in the cage with the other males; Do you think that would be okay? If the males are alone and there's no female to fight for, it should be fine, shouldnt it? I'm really worried if I dont do something about this soon, something will happen, and I dont want the babies being eaten, or the male mice killing each other.

Thanks for your help.
Rachelle

ANSWER: Dear Rachelle,

Males can sometimes get along and sometimes can't.  Certainly the first thing to do is try. No matter what happens you will need the second cage.  All the mice have to have wheels, though.  In a usual situation, I would leave the male with the female it mounted and have never had a problem with eating.  However, since the males might know who the father is even if you don't, there is a rather small chance that one male would want to eat one litter of babies.  This isn't very likely, but because of your situation I would just let the females raise the kids alone.  In the other cage, you will try to see if the males will live together.  I think the pet shuttle might be a good place because it is so small that hopefully they will not even think of trying to create territories within it.  If they can get along in there for a week or so, then make the new cage completely free of mouse smell.  Wash the used items in diluted bleach or hot water and a mild soap.  Then put the pet shuttle in the cage.  Try it without another house at first.  See what happens.  If at that point or if even earlier they were really fighting in the pet shuttle, put the less aggressive male in with the babies. I'm pretty sure there should be no problems,but watch carefully.  Any blood and the male gets its own cage.  The other male would get the other cage all to itself.  That makes three cages. Later on if you DON'T want babies, you will need three cages anyway.  It's so sad that males fight, because then they so often have to live alone.  Make sure the cages are close because they do communicate and keep each other company.  If you do want lots and lots of babies, though, then each cage gets a couple after the babies are raised.

Think hard before you decide you want to start manufacturing babies.  What are you going to do with 8-24 babies every three weeks?  If you don't separate the babies by 4 1/2 weeks, you will have 100 times that.  This is a baby explosion.  Make real sure you know what you are getting into and find a pet store who will take the babies, maybe even in exchange for food.

Let me know what happens, ok?

squeaks n giggles,

Natasha

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Dear Natasha,

I wish they could get just along (haha). Yep. I have an extra wheel that couldn't fit in the big cage, so I will use that one. I have no idea which male mouse "mounted" which female mouse, because both of the females look the same. So I don't think i should put 1 mouse with a female, because that could cause fights, because the other mouse might get angry that their girl is with another mouse. So I should just keep the females in the (big or small??) cage together to raise the kids? That's what I was thinking. Yes, I will be buying a new cage tomorrow, so I will keep the males in the shuttle for a week, and then put them in the new cage (which is smaller than my other one). Try it without another house? Do you mean like a toy mouse house inside it? I don't want more babies, as I didn't realise that mice breed so much. So if the males get along; I should put them together, and wait for the babies to get to 4 weeks and then add them in the other cage with the boys, and leave the girls in the bigger cage? I don't want a lot of babies, but I was thinking maybe I should do that, because I spent $90 on the cage, and am having regrets about getting mice (they smell and I get too worried about them), and selling the mice should get me a bit of money.

They have 8-24 babies? AH! I didn't know that. Well if they have a lot, I can just sell the babies to the pet shop after they have grown up a bit (Although I will be attached to them, so it will be a bit hard). The pet store that I was going to buy some mice from takes mice, so I shall look into giving the mice to them (Mum won't be too happy though, she cringed at the thought of baby mice being fed to snakes :( so sad!!...)

Hopefully I don't have too many babies, but if it gets out of hand, I'll sell them and get a bit of money back. I'm not sure if the pet shop has a limit 2 how many mice it takes, but I could take some to each pet shop. The pet shop where I got my females from had no problem with putting all the male mice together. Do you know why that is? I've got the impression that males usually fight. But the man in the shop didn't even know for sure that the ones I got were girls (his daughter sorts them out), and he pulled the mice out of the cage by the tails, which I started to think was the right way to get them out, but I've read it's not, so I'll remember that.

Also, I had another question. How do you ween mice? I don't know anything about it.

Thanks heaps,

Rachelle



ANSWER: Dear Rachelle,

I'll try to keep track of all of these questions but if I forget something, do remind me!  I do think the females will be best off raising the pups themselves, and since mice can get pregnant the day they give birth, putting a daddy mouse in would ensure another litter three weeks after that.  

I hope that the two boys get along.  The mice in the pet store may get along because just as with your two boys in the carry cage (you don't mean a little cardboard box, do you?), with so many mice there is no room for territory disputes.  If they have boys and girls together, it is probably because (are they all white?) they are being used as feeders, so it doesn't matter if somebody gets pregnant.  Breaks my heart!

Yes, when mice are settled in a cage they should have something to nest in.  Don't just leave them in bare litter or chips.  They would like a toy mouse house or a little cardboard box or at least a few pieces of a cut up sock.  Especially in waiting for the babies.  The little mommies-to-be will want very much to create nests as they near their time and they should have Kleenex, cloth, yarn, anything soft and warm to line them with.

If the boys don't get along and you don't want to keep two males in two extra cages, you may be able to give back one male to the pet shop.  Another option if you want to make sure he does not get fed to a snake is to put an advert in the paper and give him away to a good home.  Make sure they are not just going to use him as a feeder.  If you do return a mouse to the store, be aware that if it is an injured mouse, they will most likely just kill it.  The world of mouse pets is a difficult one, but when you have a couple you will learn to love them and they will give you just as much back and be wonderful pets.  The girls don't stink like the boys do, by the way.  

When you have babies and it is time to separate them at 4 1/2 weeks, you can try to keep them together in one cage and all the girls in another.  It might even work to put them in with an adult male, not the more aggressive one, but there is no guarantee.  But they should get along together for a few weeks and maybe longer. If the pet store accepts mice, you can just sell them the moment there is trouble.  

Selling mice isn't as easy as just letting them mate and watching the babies grow up.  The babies have to be tamed.  I think it is terribly irresponsible for the pet store not to have talked to you about the consequences of raising litters.  They are the cutest things in the whole world, especially the day they open their eyes, but they aren't born tame.  And if you do decide to breed on purpose, be aware that  they may very well be used as feeders.  When I discovered this as a child breeding mice, I switched from white mice to colored mice because the colored ones were more expensive and more likely to be sold as pets.  Another method is if you tame your babies to be much tamer than their usual mice, they may keep them separately to specifically be sold as pets.  Talk to your pet store.  Maybe you can work something out.  

You are correct that you should avoid picking up any mouse by its tail.  If you have to do so, you should grab the tail by the base, right below its rear end, and immediately place the mouse on the other hand.  Mice hate being picked up by their tails and I never do it.  A tail can easily break off, and besides the pain and terror it causes the mouse, tails are crucial for the mouse to keep its balance.

I wrote a very long answer to someone's question about pregnancy and weaning called something like "from pregnancy till infancy" on Feb 16, which I will largely quote here.  If the spacing comes out hard to read, please find the old answer on my page or at the general mouse page.

"Make sure she has a lovely, dark, warm, private place to make her nest.  If in a house, make sure she has bits of cloth and Kleenex to keep her warm and protected.  If not, make sure she has plenty of space to make a nice thick nest and give her plenty of cloth strips (old T-shirt or one of those ubiquitous unmatched socks).  Don't be stingy with bedding and litter.  She should have a good two inches of chips to work with.  Make sure there is plenty of food at all times.  As always, keep the water in a place where, if it leaked, it would not get the nest wet; I usually place it over the food dish.

When the babies have been born, do not disturb the nest for the first week (only if it is easy to do so without disruption, you may peek quickly just to see the little things!  They are funny-looking pink wiggly blobs).  You may hold her when she comes out to run in the wheel or if she makes it easy to pick her up, and then only for a few minutes.  She has a tough job to do.  If she gets upset she may try to move them out of the nest; this is dangerous.  If it happens, gently return the babies to the nest and return her to it as well.

After a week, the babies will have fur.  With someone else helping, begin to gently hold them (warm hands!) once or twice a day for perhaps 5 minutes.  You may have a tough time getting them out because she may disapprove!  When she is on the wheel, take it out with her in it (I hope it is a stand-alone; otherwise you have to scoop her out of it) and let someone watch her while you take out the handful of pups.  Let them get used to your smell (hold both your hands closed and very gently breathe into them).  Make sure they don't jump and hold them over the bed, not the floor.  

At two weeks they will begin to open their eyes and go nuts!  The whole world suddenly becomes a terrifying place.  They will be afraid of you.  They still need to be held once a day for at least five minutes to get tame. This phase is often called the 'flea' stage, or I call it the 'popcorn' stage.  They weigh almost nothing and have strong hind legs, so they can jump up to two feet in the air!  To get them out, try opening the nest and scooping them out before they have a chance to run.  If you need to catch them (don't chase them around the cage if you can help it), you may grab the base of the tail (near the butt) and then immediately place the mouse on the palm of the other hand, keeping a gentle hold on the tail until the baby is calm enough not to jump.  As soon as I get them out I wrap them in the bottom of my T-shirt (pulling it up towards my face) until they are calmer.  Then I let them out carefully one by one into my gently closed hand.  When they are calm in my hand I hold them for another minute or two, then put them back.  

Be prepared at any stage for the babies or mom (if you upset her) to nip you.  Don't throw them up in the air!  Most likely it will not break the skin and not really hurt, just surprise you.  If the skin is ever broken (a real bite), wash it thoroughly with hydrogen peroxide or antibiotic and watch carefully for signs of infection.  You might want to let your doctor know but it will probably be fine.  If a mouse bites you it means she is terrified, hurt, startled, or defending her nest.  Try not to repeat the mistake, but if a mouse bites several times, you may need to change your relationship with her.

At 3 to 3 1/2 weeks they will eat real food (mouse seed) and a week later will begin to become sexually mature.  At 4 1/2 weeks separate the girls from the boys (girls stay with mom) so you don't have any more unexpected pregnancies.  The boys may begin to fight after a while, so have a contingency plan for them!  You pet store or vet may be able to suggest a way to give some away to happy homes so you do not end up with too many mice. Do keep at least two girl babies for mom to have as friends.  It's a pity to keep a single mouse because they need each other."

If you have more questions, or if I have forgotten to answer one, please write again.

Best of luck!  You will love the babies!

squeaks n giggles,

Natasha

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: hello again,

I had good news before, but I now have bad news. I heard the pups squeaking but didn't know what was goin on; Before I realised what was going on, the other mother (not the one with the babies) had grabbed one of the other mum's babies in it's mouth. I thought it was going to et it, then I thought maybe it was just playing with it or taking it for a ride or something. Then before I knew it, the baby was on the slide and had a bit of blood around it. I panicked and got my mum, while tapping the cage to get the mouse away from it so it didn't eat it. We took the slide out, and I asked my friend what to do. She said the best bet would be to let the mouse go and get rid of it, because the mother might eat the others if it felt endangered; So I flushed it down the toilet (I almost cried in the process) and left the mother and the babies in the lift out cage on the table, while I tried to catch the mouse that hurt the baby. I put the other mother (the one without the babies) in the pet shuttle and set up food and water and things like that for it. As soon as I put the mother back in, she went and smelt the cage, as if to make sure that the other mother was not in there. She then went back to her babies and started sniffing them (I panicked because it looked like she was going to eat them). I think she must have been sniffing them to make sure they were okay or something, as she has now layed down on top of the babies, and is looking after them. The mums will stay seperated until the babies start to grow fur, but I thought I should just tell you. Is this unusual??

Rachelle

Answer
Dear Rachelle,

Oh, no!  That's so sad.  Your friend was correct to take the injured baby out and kill it.  Drowning it is not such a bad death but I would have been crying too.  It was good to take the aggressive mother out.  Is she still pregnant?  I was hoping they would give birth at the same time, in which case they might have been happy nursing both sets.  But the pregnant mother wanted the space for her own babies.  Most important is that the real mommy did accept her own babies again.  This is pretty normal, though I had hoped it wouldn't happen.  I had assumed they got pregnant the moment they were well cage with the boys but maybe one was already pregnant in the pet shop.  Babies take 3 weeks to be born, so you can calculate that.

So now you have a pregnant mouse in the pet shuttle (what happened to the two boys?).  Well as long as she has water and food, that is an ok setup.  She will have her babies soon and will treat them well.  

You did exactly the right thing.  I hope everything goes well from now on.

squeaks,

Natasha