crate mess at night

Question
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Hi Labman --

My chocolate lab puppy is now 10 weeks old.  After I got your email response, I did some of your suggestions below and some things worked for awhile.  I had an area in the crate she could raise herself up from out of the mess, I walked her at about 11pm before bed and then also at about 2 am, I changed her eating schedule to 2x per day with the last feeding at 3:30pm.  For about 1 week she stopped pooping in the crate.  Now she has started to do this again.  For the last 4-5 days at 6am, when we come downstairs there has been poop(and at times urine) in the crate.  She did raise herself up out of it, but then it seemed like she saw the higher area as the sleep area and the bottom of the crate as the bathroom area, so three days ago I eliminated the higher up area.  The crate is large, but it is full of boxes, so that she only has a small space (that she can turn around and lay down in).  I am really at a loss about what to do.  Her pattern seems to be to make the mess and then a bit later whine for me to get her out of the mess. (she doesn't really seem to like being in the mess anymore.) Why does she not whine for me to take her out when she has to go?  How do I reverse the pattern and eliminate her doing this?  Other than this, she seems to be a happy, personable dog.  Thanks so much  for your help.        

Followup To
Question -
Labman -- thank you so very much for your response.  I will look for a wire mesh piece that will allow puppy to get out of the mess and I will try that.  (Right now she seems like she does not want to get out of the mess but likes it for some reason.)  She was fostered with a couple of her siblings in a house where they had 4 other big dogs, so she was not completely isolated.  Should I remove any blanket or towel that I have in the bottom of the cage?  She seems to like laying on them, and I thought it made the cage more comfortable for her to go into. But given this crate mess at night issue these are really very soiled in the morning.  Also I am just not sure why she is not whining for me to let her out at night?  However, FYI during the day she never whines for me to let her out, she just goes out based on when I decide it is time.  Thanks again.  





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Followup To
Question -
I recently adopted a choc lab puppy from a shelter. She was about 6 weeks old when I got her and now she is 9 weeks.  She and her siblings were taken from their mother and fostered at about 5 weeks, as their mother became aggressive about sharing dog food with them.  She has a sweet temperment.  The first week she slept through the night (as the foster mother told me sho would) with no real problem, no whining, just a bit wet in the morning.  This past week or so she still has not been whining at night in her crate for me to get up and take her out, rather she just poops in the crate and is happy to sit in it, eat it, etc.  She even gets mad when I take her out of the crate to clean it up.  Everyone I talk to says this is not normal and will be a real problem.  Help!  I have never had a puppy before and this is all new to me.  Thanks!
Answer -
It is never good to separate a puppy from its mother before 6 weeks, although it wouldn't be as bad if they kept the litter together.  If the puppies were forced to stay in their own filth, she may see it as normal.  I am going to paste in some material on housebreaking.  It includes adding a rack to the bottom of the crate to keep the puppy up out the filth.  Adding pineapple juice to her food may keep her from eating her feces.  You may try getting up in the middle of the night and taking her out.  Chances are in a week as she bonds to you, the problem will clear up.  Stay in touch. I am sure there will be other things I can help with.  

Much of housebreaking is not training the puppy, but making it easier for your
puppy, you, and your carpet while its body to catches up to its instincts.  At
around 8 weeks when the puppy goes to its new home, the time from when it
realizes it has to go, and when it can't wait any longer is a matter of
seconds.  Only time will fix that.  You can hardly be expected to be attentive
enough to avoid all accidents  There is no sense punishing the puppy for your
inattention.  It is not fair to punish you either, but you still have to clean
it up if you didn't have the puppy outside in time.

Housebreaking starts before you get home with the new puppy. If you don't have
a crate, buy one. I prefer the more enclosed, den like plastic ones. Skip the
bedding.  At first it gets wet, and later it can be chewed into choking
hazards.  A wire rack in the bottom will help keep the puppy up out of
accidents at first. They are available with the crates, but a piece of closely
spaced wire closet shelving from a home supply place is cheaper. If you
already have a metal crate, covering it may help. Just make sure you use
something the puppy can't pull in and chew. Dogs that start out in crates as
little puppies, accept them very well.  Never leave an unattended puppy loose
in the house.  If nobody can watch it, put it in the crate.  I suggest letting
the dog have its crate all its life.

Choose a command and spot you want it to use. The less accessible to strays,
the less chance of serious disease.   If it is a female, choosing a
non grassy spot will avoid brown spots later. When you bring it home, take it
to the spot and give it the command in a firm, but friendly voice. Keep
repeating the command and let the puppy sniff around. If it does anything,
praise it. Really let it know what a good dog it is and how much you love it,
and maybe a treat.  Note, being out there not only means you can praise it,
but it also keeps it from being snatched by a hawk. If it doesn't go, take it
inside and give it a drink and any meals scheduled. A young puppy will need to
go out immediately afterward. Go to the spot and follow the above routine.
Praising it if it goes is extremely important. If it doesn't go, take it back
inside and put it in its crate and try again soon. Do not let it loose in the
house until it does go.

At first it is your responsibility to know and take the puppy out when it
needs to go. It needs to go out the first thing in the morning, after eating,
drinking, and sleeping. If it quits playing, and starts running around
sniffing, it is looking for a place to go. Take it out quickly. You will just
have to be what I call puppy broke until it is a little older.

By the time most dogs are about 3 months old, they have figured out that if
they go to the door and stand, you will let them out. The praise slowly shifts
to going to the door. Some people hang a bell there for the dog to paw. If
your dog doesn't figure this out, try praising it and putting it out if it
even gets near the door. A stern "Bad dog!" is all the punishment that is
effective, and only when you catch it in the act and are sure you didn't miss
it going to the door. Clean up accidents promptly. I mostly keep the little
puppies out of the carpeted rooms. Still I need the can of carpet foam
sometimes.  First blot up all the urine you can with a dry towel.  Keep moving
it and stepping on it until a fresh area stays dry.  A couple big putty knives
work well on bowel movements.  Just slide one under it while holding it with
the other.  This gets it up with a minimum of pushing it down into the carpet.
This works with even relatively soft ones, vomit, dirt from over turned house
plants, or anything else from solids to thick liquids.  Finish up with a good
shot of carpet foam.  Note, do not let the puppy lick up the carpet foam.
Once the dog is reliably housebroken, your carpet may need a good steam cleaning.
Answer -
They do fine without any bedding.  My 14 month old is still sleeping in a bare crate.  I do let the 11 year old have a dog bed.  

Answer
Usually a 10 week old is going the night clean and dry.  If you are feeding her at 3 PM and she is having a bowel movement 12 hours later, maybe try feeding her later, even 7 PM giving her time for one bowel movement before bed time and another the next morning.  If you are not feeding one of the concentrated chows, Pro Plan, Iam's, Eukanuba, or some house brand, The smaller stools might give her the edge she needs to go a little longer.  I am afraid at that age they still don't have much warning of bowel movements.  She just may not think to whine until she has the misery of a fouled crate.  Even if you are not able to take much effective action, time is on your side.  It should get better soon.  

If you move the last feeding until 7, you might cut the water off shortly after that to prevent urinations over night.  

You should be what seems constantly at the vet for shots.  Talk over the problem.  A good vet would have routinely checked a stool sample for worms and other parasites.