water issue

Question
QUESTION: Help!  My son's friend is moving and she asked him if we'd take her aquarium fish.  He said, "Sure, I'm getting a new tank for my birthday (4/10) and we'll have it cycled by June."  I agreed - thinking it was the typical aquarium w/ tetras, neons, etc.

I'm sure my jaw hit the ground the other day when we picked them up.  We had removed the few fish he had in the tank in preparation for the "tetras, cherry barbs and tiger barbs."  However there are two angel fish, two Silver Dollars, two catfish and plecos of a substantial size!  

I mistakenly removed 5 gallons of our 10 and used their water which ended up being terrible.  The fish were waiting for us in a cooler - not sure if that threw the chemistry off or if it was just bad to begin with.  I did a water test before putting in their fish, knew right away we'd need a larger tank, and bought a 45 gallon one.  However, that tank is far from ready having just added water today.  

I've done 40% water changes each of the last three days and can't get the ammonia to budge.  I've read that "Prime" will reduce the toxins, but you'll still get a high falst positive with reagent tests.  My pH is now off, but I've put in Bull's Eye.  I'm worried about too many chemicals.  My question is this:  Should I try to jump start the new aquarium with Stability in the hopes I can get the fish in there in a week?  Should I use ammo chips for the current problem in the tank?  I've removed the smaller fish and put them into a well-cycled established tank where I removed the fish for a third tank we have.  My sons each have small, uncrowded tanks, so I'm hoping this helps.  

I'm worried these fish aren't going to make it - no signs of stress yet, but they can't live like this.  I hope I did the right thing by moving the barbs, tetras, etc. out of the tank w/ the high ammonia, but hate to lose the catfish, silver dollars, etc.

I'm grateful for any advice.

Thanks,
Dana

ANSWER: Hi Dana,
Sounds like you have quite a situation there.  The reason for the ammonia not budging is because all those fish are producing so much ammonia so fast.  Have you tested for nitrites yet?  Signs of nitrites shows the cycling process is moving along.  The main thing right now is continue what you are doing, do water changes until the tank is cycled.  You said you have other tanks that are fully cycled and set up.  Take the USED filter cartridges from these tanks (the more the better) and introduce them into the 45 gallon tank.  This is called "seeding" and will greatly increase the cycling of the tank.  Also, increase the temperature to 80, warm water will also promote faster cycling.  I also cycle tanks this way and it is usually cycled within a week if done correctly.  It sounds like you are a quite experienced aquarist and I take it that you understand how the nitrogen cycle works.  Remember to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels of the tank low as possible because these toxins are more harmful to fish compared to nitrate.  

Anything from Seachem are great products including Prime and Stability.  Stability contains the beneficial bacteria that is necessary for cycling.  Use the Stability that you have including "seeding" your tank.  Add Ammo chips also for temporary use because it "locks" the ammonia pieces together to "lower" ammonia levels.  But the ammonia is still in there, therefore water changes is still top priority.  

The bullseye you were talking about.  Anything that adjusts the ph such as the medications "pH down" or "pH up" or even "bulls eye" does not work.  It will move the pH to a certain level that you want, but the buffers in the tank will eventually bring it back to what it was before which will make you continue to add more meds to adjust it back.  Its easier to let the fish adapt to your water pH rather than the other way around.  Any pH of water should be fine for any fish as long as it is not in the extreme.  6.2-7.6 is the ok range for any fish.  

You did the right thing by moving the tetras out, because these fish require a cycled tank and are sensitive to toxins.  

Hope this helps.
-Matt-

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks, Matt.  When you say to seed the new tank, do you mean to just change the cartriges in the other tanks and float their old ones in the new tank?

Also, did you mean test for nitrates?  I have barely any color differentiation there, indicating just a hint of nitrates.  Nitrites are nil - I thought that was a good thing.  

The original 10 gal. in question now houses two angels, two Silver Dollars, and the two catfish and pleco.  It's better, but still far from ideal (these are "larger" fish - too many inches for a 10 gallon)and I have the concern that the tank w/ the barbs and tetras will soon develop ammonia issues as it's overcrowded.  Is there a chance everyone can hang in there for a week?  I sort of understand the nitrogen cycle, but I'm far from an experienced aquarist.  I've only had these smaller uncrowded tanks for years.

I feel an extra obligation to these fish as they were our friends', though they came with horribly high ammonia water that I should have tested before adding to our own tank.  Still, the crowding issue would have precluded me from accepting them - or at least until we had a bigger tank.

Again, I thank you,
Dana

ANSWER: Hi agian Dana,
Yes thats what I mean :), as long as the old cartridge is in the new tank, beneficial bacteria will leak out and eat all the ammonia and nitrIte.  The used old cartridges from the old tanks contain a VERY large amount of beneficial bacteria.  There are 2 beneficial bacteria that you need to grow.  One type converts ammonia-to-nitrIte and after this set has grown, you will see readings of nitrIte, after that, there is ANOTHER set of bacteria that will kick in to gear that converts nitrIte into nitrAte.  NitrAte is the least harmless one and fish can tolerate this to a high amount with no health problems.  A "cycled" tank is where you find 0ppm readings of both ammonia and nitrIte WITH readings of nitrAte.  

And no, I really meant test for NitrItes.  Because after ammonia is broken down you will see nitrIte readings before you see nitrAte readings.  The reason why I ask if there are any readings of NitrIte is because if there ARE readings of it, it means the 1st set of bacteria is growing well.

I didn't know the fish were in the 10 gallon tank.  I must have misread your post and assumed they were in the 45 gallon tank.  The 10 gallon tank for 1 week is ok, but shouldn't be permanent.  For the 45 gallon tank to cycle, you must have a source of ammonia to feed the bacteria or the cycle will never take place.  What you can do is place all of the new fish you have gotten, into the 45 gallon tank.  The fish feces and fish food will help the tank cycle.  But you must do water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrite from getting too high.  If the tank has fish in it while trying to cycle, try to keep both the ammonia and nitrIte below 0.50ppm.

At one point in time, I dealt with the same situation you did because one of my friends couldn't keep his fish any longer.  I felt obligated to take care of them as well.

Hope everything works out Dana, feel free to ask more questions if I am confusing you.
-Matt-  

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: OK, thanks for the speedy replies.  I'm getting it, slowly but surely.  Have quite the zoo here as my young sons and I take in a lot of surrendered, injured or abandoned animals, just not usually fish!

My filters from the other tanks are quite small - they are either 10 gallons or the 5.5 gallon eclipse tanks - actually four total tanks now housing our fish plus the new ones, except that the one 10 gallon tank w/ the ammonia issue houses the larger ones since we moved out the tetras, barbs, etc.

Will these tiny filters really help the 45 gallon tank quickly?  I will do so anyway, but I'm a little hesitant to put in the fish since water just went in today.  I did read, however, that the Tiger Barbs are good for cycling.  I added a capful of Stability this evening.  I think I'm going to try to hold off on the fish until that Stability week is over????  I'm most worried about the big fish - put in the ammonia chips and will do another water change tomorrow.  I'm now concerned that I've wiped out the nitrites as they're not registering.  I will check again.  I've been checking all of these tanks (plus those of my newts) - I'm dizzy!  What about adding water from the other tanks for the water change in the 10 gallon having the ammonia issue?

Thanks so much - let me repay you with some fire bellied newts, lol!
Dana

Do you suggest water changes this week for the 45 gal tank that's using Stability?  Seems like I heard I should be doing this, but there's nothing on the bottle to indicate it.  I will also use some gravel from the other tanks in a stocking...

Answer
No problem Dana,
Yes fish are different pets to take care of, because you usually have to treat the water rather than the pet lol.  

Since the 45 gallon is big compared to the 4 other ones.  I would change all 4 of small tanks, and use all 4 old cartridges to "seed" the new big tank.  The more bacteria, the faster it cycles.

What I am about to explain may sound a bit absurd, but it is the most popular method in the aquatic hobby.  Theres a method called Fishless Cycling.  Its all over google too if you want to research it.  You cycle WITHOUT any fish.  But since there are no fish, how do we introduce ammonia in order to cycle you ask.  You do so by putting in straight ammonia from a bottle.  It's the same thing you clean the floors with that you buy from hardware stores.  It sounds crazy I know, but it works very well.  The ammonia will provide food for cycling.  The advantages are, 1)it's a fast way to cycle and 2)because there are no fish, no harm can be done.  In fishless cycling, people add ammonia to high concentrations about 5-6ppm to promote very fast cycling.  Cycling with fish however takes longer.  

No matter which way you decide to cycle, you must have some source of ammonia whether it be by fish or by straight ammonia (without additives) from stores.  

Stability doesnt harm the fish in any way.  Even if you happen to accidently pour the entire bottle into the tank, it wont be harmful.  It is just aerobic and non-aerobic bacteria to help cycle.  

The nitrItes are not registering because the ammonia has not been broken down yet.  It is part of cycling.  Allow time for the ammonia-to-nitrite converting bacteria to reproduce and you will eventually see decreasing traces of ammonia and increasing traces of nitrite.  Allow more time after that and you will see decreasing traces of nitrIte and increasing traces of nitrAte.

Tiger barbs are hardy and are good for cycling, but since these fish are known to be aggressive, you wont be able to put any peaceful fish with them after it is done cycling without risking anyone to get hurt.  However the catfish, pleco, and sand dollars will be fine with the tiger barbs.  Just not the platies, otos, guppies, and danios.

Let me know if you have more questions.
-Matt-  

-Matt-