Question
Daisy
Hi Sandra, I have been reading and researching so much about pet rat care lately as I want to do the best I can to take care of our Daisy. We have had 4 rats total; however, we have already had two rats die at a young age and within the last year (Dora 1.5 yrs- neurological and Millie 4 or 5 mo-right foot injury/died of shock?? dont know true reason still). Anyways, they were both kind of tragic and unexpected. And now that our Daisy is sick, we want to make sure that we are doing the right thing for her. I have read so much about head tilt in rats from your site and others, and we also have taken her to the vet, but I was hoping for a second opinion from someone who I believe knows rats VERY well. Daisy's symptoms are: head tilt to the right, unbalanced,uncoordinated,nystagmus, circled in her walk in the beginning, lethargic (although this could be her old age). She also has been sneezing quite a bit, and has very little porphryin discharge from nose (not very significant). I have been reading a lot about mycoplasma and I am almost positive she has this underlying condition. Little background on health hx before head tilt: Right after buying our two newest rats (Millie and Mishka)in April, Daisy started bleeding quite a bit from her uterus and we took her to the vet and she was given baytril (2 wk regimen). The bleeding has since been at a minimal. And all had been well for Daisy since except for a few onsets of sneezing and case of mites from new bedding (Now we know to freeze it). Now fast forward to the present.
Our recent vet visit: We went to the vet after a night in noticing head tilt and the symptoms listed above. After the vet took a look at her, he said that it was hard to tell between inner ear infection, stroke, or pituitary tumor. Although he said that being how old she was that it was probably a tumor???, but hope for the best that it is otitis media. She has been able to walk and still uses her front limbs just fine. He started talking about the options of either treating her with antibiotics or putting her to sleep. We were very sad by this as this is the second time he had talked about euthanizing (first time was after he talked about her possibly having uterine cancer and that she may bleed out to death- when she was treated with baytril the 1st time). I have not been 100% comfortable with this vet as it seems as if he may not be very specialized in rat care (From what I know he has interest in exotics, I dont know to what extent is professional training). He does know about mycoplasma, but believes that it only causes respiratory symptom??
His treatment plan for her presently: 2 doses per day of .16 ml of 2.5% Baytril to treat infection.
I have been extensively reading about effectively treating head tilt with a combination of antibiotics and a steroid. I suggested a steroid to be used; however, he was very cautious about the steroid and only suggests to use it as a last resort because he fears that it will suppress the immune system even more and cause more respiratory symptoms (mycoplasma flare-up as he tells me). But if Daisy is on an antibiotics already, wouldnt this help her immune system to fight it? And how effective could the treatment of baytril be without steroids? I also read about a combination of doxycyline with baytril and a steroid (is this the most effective)
He also suggested trying Metacam. What are the risks and benefits of Metacam vs. a steroid such as Predisolone? Which do you prefer? Is the vet right in saying that there is more of a risk using a steroid? I know you are not a vet, but i am sure you have a better take on this as you have years of practice with rat care. Also what do you recommend for the amount of a med she should receive as well in order for it to be effective. I believe she weighs 410 grams.
Her results after 2-3 days of use on the antibiotic only: Daisy has shown improvement in coping with her head tilt, although still visible. She is still sneezing a little, but is eating and drinking alone. She seems less disoriented, but has not changed dramatically. But her mood is definitely better and back to her old habits once in a while (nipping at us). She is eating and drinking on her own, still somewhatlethargic,and walking-with a slight lean to the right. I don't know all of her voiding/bowel info, but I'm pretty sure it is regular and normal.
I am not sure if she is just coping better with symptoms or if she truly is improving and will be able to get through this effectively. I guess the most important thing we want to make sure is that she is comfortable and not dizzy and has a good quality of life left in her.
I sincerely apologize for this long question, I probably have rambled on too much. I just want to make sure I was thorough with describing facts and observations. I truly appreciate your time in this matter as I value your opinion very much.
Thank you,
Erin and Dizzy Daisy
AnswerHi Erin and little Dizzy Daisy (awwww :(
I have a dizzy Smudge so join the club. He has been dizzy since January 2008 due to vestibular disease and damage to the 8th cranial nerve after suffering from meningitis. He is blind in both eyes also, but believe it or not, he was not about to give up and who was I to take his life from him because I feared he would suffer when he fought so hard to get better. So here we are, 9 months later, and he is doing great despite his furiously moving head that he bucks up and down like he is nodding YES plus he bumps into things if they are new to him. poor guy.
That said, I want to thank you for your indepth message. This is the kind of info I need in order to get the full picture as to what is going on.
I will warn you now that this will be super long since I have alot to say about everything in your message. My fingers a tired already! lol
So starting from the top:
Does Daisy continue to bleed vaginally? Has she ever had blood tests run? If this was infection you would think the bleeding would be resolved. Even if the bacteria causing a vaginal infection would more than likely be mycoplasmosis, it should have improved.
If this was from a tumor, it would have taken its toll on her by now. I suspect possibly polycystic ovary syndrome. Has her hair thinned out anywhere? You said she was lethargic, which can also be hormonal if she does have POS. If I misunderstood and she is not bleeding any longer, disregard this and chalk it up to babbling too much. lol
Next up, I agree with you that it could be the onset of mycoplasmosis. You said the vet knows about mycoplasmosis but if he thinks its isolted to respiratory infections, he obvviously needs to brush up on it. I have pretty extensive training with myco mainly since this is an organims that rats are introduced to in the birth canal and it can poke its ugly head out and cause problems with many areas of the rats body, from the respiraotry tract, urinary tract, uterus and femal reproductive organs which right there should tell the vet that since rats get myco from their mother during birth, its obvious myco isnt isolated to the respiratory tract. Also, myco can cause otits media and finally, rats are suffering from degenerative changes as they age with one being nerve root compression in the rats lower lumbar region. This causes weakness in the hind quarters and can lead to hind leg paralysis. The organism found to cause some of these problems is mycoplasma and is linked to arthritis in rats as well.
Myco is a malignant bacteria (spreading and invasive) and I only wish the rumors of a vaccine would come to pass and actually happen than just be a dream!
From what I am gathering from your letter, it also seems the vet has one foot out the door and on to the next patient (since you get the feeling the vet is not caring enough) and the other hand on an injection of pentobarbital!! It is sometimes easier to let the animal go rather than to exhaust all options of treatment, esp if the Vet doesnt know what to do next and dont have the patience or true desire to do it. Unfortunately some people think of rats as disposable pets, not realizing how much some of us can truly fall hook, line and sinker for these small pets. They charm us with their lively personalities,they amaze us with their intelligence and they inspire us because they have so much soul, such a will to survive, because after all, rats are true survivors and have been for centuries. Why do you think they are the toughest "pest" an exterminator will ever face,always being outsmarted by the cunning rat.
Ok so I covered that about the vet. I just felt the need to voice my opinion about this. I am always concerned when someone is less than satisfied with their Vet. Its important to know they are of course only capable of doing so much, but if there is more that can and should be done and the vet stops short of it, time to look for another vet. Some vets that have in interest in treating exotics just dont have the extensive training as exotic vets that have gone the extra courses and passed the specialty boards in exotic medicine. However, the non exotic vet that treats exotics should recognize their potential and perhaps be open to outside information. If they close the door on such offers, their arrogance alone would be enough to send me packing and off to another vet. Rats have short lives and learning as you go isnt fair to the rat as the rat has to suffer while they are learning. I can help you find another vet if you are interested, unless you feel that you can gently suggest other options that you have heard from other rat owners or from someone like myself that probably has more experience with rats than the vet does, but lacks the certificate on the wall that allows me to make that claim on a professional level.
Anyhow, on to the otitis media and head tilt. Expect the head tilt to take some time to go away. If this is due to infection, there is pressure on the 8th cranial nerve, which is the part of the brain that controls the equilibrium. Even after infection has cleared, inflammation may remain and take time unless the rat is put on prednisone and even if they are it may take some time to ease up. Sometimes they never get fully rid of the tilt, and always have at least a slight hint of it the rest of their lives, but in most cases it goes away completely with proper treatment.
If it were a stroke there may be more symptoms and if it was a pituitary tumor, symptoms would come on gradually. The first thing noticed with a pituitary tumor is weakness in their front paws. They lose their strength and ability to hold food in their paws. Often PTs are seen in intact female rats after estrus cycles halt. Estrogen levels rise and this in turn causes mammary tumors and pituitary tumors as well. Spaying your rat at a young age between 3 and 5 months is the best prevention. If it were a stroke, she would probably not be improving and usually they have mini strokes after that or one bigger stroke which luckily has not occured. I am just hoping it is indeed otitis media. Your right about the steroids lowing the rats resistance, but as you said, the rat will be on antibioitcs which would be prophlaytix in preventing a secondar infection. Not only that,but it takes more than just a 10 day therapy of steroids to fire up a super infection. It takes months actually and we are only asking for short term treatment. This should not be a problem and actually the benefits outweigh the risks. You will see her respond fster than with using NSAIDS like metacam. There are indeed risks using metacam other than the fact that its an NSAID like motrin/advil is, the same side effects apply to metacam as they do with motrin etc...
which are as follows:
stomach ulceration
loss of kidney function
internal bleeding
nause
appetite loss
diarrhea
So there are some side effects to using metacam. However this is usually not seen when its short term use. Steroids can carry a risk for secondary infection with long term use, so really, both drugs carry some risk or another.
With that, I ask, how is she doing today?
Let me know if I missed anything!
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