My boy rat Oreo, just need advice

Question
QUESTION: I asked about a head tilt about a month ago on here and you said it could be an ear infection. I wasn't able to go to the vet, but after about a month, his head tilt went away and he seemed fine. The problem I have now is, just about 5 days ago, my two boys Tommy (about 8 months) and Oreo (a year old) both seemed very sick. Tommy was breathing really heavily for a day but he is okay now. Its Oreo that is still sick. Im not asking how to cure him really just if he still has a chance. Like I said before, about 5 days ago he seemed very sick. He was very lethargic and was just sleeping most of the time or hunched up in a corner. He lost some weight, but it wasn't that noticeable. I took him out of his cage for a day and watched over him. He didn't seem to be getting any better. He had the red stuff around his eyes and nose, which I know is bad, and he also had started eating and drinking rarely. This all happened within a day or two which is why Im so confused. Today when I went to check on him, he could barley move. He wouldn't eat or drink anything (not even human food) and was almost limp in my hands when i held him. He also is wheezing pretty bad, not continuously though. But what I am most concerned about is his extreme weight loss and the fact that within the past 6 hours, he's started bleeding from his mouth. I was going to get him euthanized today but the only place i could go to is closed until tomorrow. I plan on taking him then if he gets worse. He hasn't eaten or drank anything almost all day now. I know he needs a vet if I even want to try and save him, but i just want to know what may be wrong with him, why it came so fast and is there a chance left for him? He is suffering and I want to put him out of his pain, but I just feel maybe there's something I can do. Thank you so much.

ANSWER: Hi Ashton

Its always worth a shot to try to save your babies.  They are both very young rats and have the potential to live to be 3 years old or longer, with the right care. The best thing to do is always take them to the vet as soon as they start to act sick.  Your boy probably has pneumonia and needs some aggressive treatment such as baytril and gentocin, steroids for the inflammation, albuterol to help open the airways and stop that wheezing, and even oxygen if he is cyanotic (blue feet/paws)

There is indeed a chance he can recover with treatment, but without it, he will surely die and it wont be an easy death, either.  I am here for you so please know that you can write to me as much as you want. If you get cut off with follow ups, you can reach me at my private email at Sandyscrittercity@yahoo.com.   Also, you will need a good vet. Let me know and I will gladly help locate someone near you.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks for the reply but he could barley breath by the next day and I didn't want him to suffer much longer so I ended up putting him to sleep. This all happened within two days and so I wasn't ready. He was a very special rat to me and I don't want the same thing to happen to my other rat, Tommy. His condition seems the same, with breathing, but his is going at a much slower rate. He is also younger also. He isn't wheezing, just breathing really hard, to the point where his whole body is moving. Thats all though, he has none of the other symptoms that Oreo had. I would love to take him to a vet and if you could find me one that would be great. I live in Buffalo, New York and would really like someone who is within an hours drive. Also, for what Tommy may need at the vet, could you maybe give me an estimate as to how much it will cost? Thanks so much.

ANSWER: oh no, I am so super sorry you lost him, but you did the right thing for sure. If he declined that bad in just 48 hours, that tells me that he very possibly may have had Strep pneumonia, which is dangerous and deadly within the first 3 days.  ITs hard to control and very hard to cure. Chances are despite treatment he may have ended up needing to be put down anyhow if he did not go on his own.

As for Tommy, I think since its slower moving disease he probably has the mycoplasmosis pulmonis that rats are prone to having.
What type of litter/bedding do you have in the cage?  

As for Vets, its hard for me to give an estimate since Vets vary in prices all over the country.  My vet is $50 the first visit which is a long consultation, and after that, its just $29 and if he is sick and has to keep going back to the Vet, he never charges me for an office visit, just for meds and or treatment.   Some vets are cheaper, some are more expensive.  Some vets let you pay for half the bill and will accept post dated checks or take down your debit or credit card number to debit the card and take payments from it each month. Others wont accept anything but payment the day services are rendered.  However, with the econmy like it there are many caring vets that would rather work with a person than see them have to forfeit proper medical care for their pets, no matter the species. Dog, cat, rat, horse, rabbit, a hissing cockroach, pet rock (lol....ok maybe not a pet rock but you  know what I mean!)   they all deserve medical treatment when sick. Vets take an oathe to help sick animals and if they are not willing to work with someone that doenst have the fundings right that very moment, what message is this Vet sending other than money means more than the well being of an anima.  Now before I have Vets starting getting all hairy and writing in to me about this, chill, because I KNOW you have to make a living too, trust me, I know this and realize this. But do NOT tell me that you ahve to charge your client $35 for a baytril injection when I know for a fact you paid no more than $50 for the ENTIRE BOTTLE that you will be drawing at least 30 injections from. So let me see now, take 50 and muliply that 35 times and what does that give you? If my math off the top of my head is right, your talking $1720.  Now, lets be real here.    

So here I have some names for you in your area. Please let me know what you decide to do.

My first choice: this is about 20 mins. from Buffalo, NY
They are also open 24 hours for emergencies which is   exaly

Dr. Edward Reiller
Orchard Park Veterinary Medical Center
3930 North Buffalo Road
 Orchard Park NY 14127
Phone:    716-662-6660
Website: www.opvmc.com



SECOND PICK, may be a bit pricey, but not sure.
Dr. Laura Wade
Specialized Care for Avian & Exotic Pets    
5915 Broadway Street
Lancaster NY 14086
Phone:    716-651-0144
Website: www.buffalobirdnerd.com


***********



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks, I use pine bedding, which I know isn't the best. I've debated over using other stuff, but don't really know which is the best investment, since there more expensive. And thanks for the recommendations. The Laura Wade doctor I called a few weeks back about removing a tumor and she was quite expensive, about $80.00 just to have an appointment... As for the other, I'll give them a call tomorrow, and will hopefully go there. I'm hoping for a caring vet to that will maybe take your point of view on pricing lol thanks again

Answer
I am afraid the pine is what is making your rats very ill, which is why I asked what type of bedding you used.  Not only is pine "not the best to use" but I am pretty sure you were not aware of the dangers of it.

Pine and cedar bedding contain phenol oils. These phenol oils are very toxic to rats and damage their very delicate lungs. It takes a long time to really show its effects but when it does, its deadly and there is nothing that can be done to stop it. Blistering of the lungs occur in many cases and because it is so irritating to the lungs, it causes mycoplasmosis.   Your rats are too young to be sick but because of their long exposure to pine, this explains much of it.

Many many people write to me when they buy new rats and tell me their rats are sneezing like crazy. I ask if they know what they were kept on in the pet store and usually it has been pine. They have found that once they have had the rat for a week or so and the little rat has a chance to rid his mucus membranes of the phenol oils from pine, the sneezing goes away. Over time, the lungs start to inflame from irritants. Infection may or may not set in, but either way, damage to the lung tissue is being done simply by breathing in the phenol oils from the pine. Mixed with the rats urine that contains high ammonia content is even worse yet and makes the exposure to pine even more volatile when it gets wet with urine.  Not sure if you use a cage or an aquarium, but an aquarium makes for another unhealthy environment for that rats too, esp they are kept on pine or  cedar.  The circulation in a tank is poor and this traps the vapors from the pine and ammonia from the rat urine.

Also, phenol oils can cause damage to the rats liver. Studies show rats kept on pine and cedar show elevated liver enzymes and enlarged livers.

Why do pet stores continue to sell this stuff?  Well for starters, pet stores claim they do not force the public to purchase this stuff, but there are many pet rat owners that are totally unaware of the toxins in pine and cedar shavings. They assume that if its available for sale, it must be safe.  Pine and cedar shavings have been traditional and popular bedding's but that in no way means they are safe.  

Known dangers of pine and cedar:

1. Enlarged livers /liver dysfunction

2. Respiratory infection

3. Compromised immune system

So.....why is it that some rat owners have claimed that their rats have always been kept on pine or cedar with no ill effects. However, rats may very well have  elevated liver enzymes but they  do not show any symptoms of illness, often passing away from either a respiratory infection or other cause when all along it very well was linked to the pine and cedar. There is no way to prove to these people that their rat indeed had ill effects from using this dangerous litter, and unless these animals received a necropsy.

Ok now that you know that, I can see you now hurrying in the room and tearing out the litter!  LOL!   You can substitute for now using paper towels shredded up or even  newspaper.  



Ohhh man I am so sorry I blabbed your ears.......I mean, EYES off by typing half a novel of WAR AND PEACE so please forgive me for babbling so much.   I just wanted not only you but other readers to know about Pine and Cedar and how toxic they can be to our critters!