Baby Joey

Question
QUESTION: Our "kids" just had twins - OOP 8 days ago.  Tonight I found the carcass of one of the joeys on the bottom of the cage.  There have been no changes or anything abnormal about their surroundings... but I have noticed that Roy (he's about 2 yrs) has been very "interested" in Libbi (she's about 8 1/2 mths) again and he will not leave her alone.  For the past 2 nights they fought for over 4 hours straight - each night.  I did not separated them because I did not want to remove him and cause more stress.  But tonight - all has been quiet.  I have not checked on the other baby - kinda scared - you know... could the stress of "arguing" cause them to kill the baby?  Or could it be that she was to young? Also, when should I start to hold & bond with the baby - praying he is okay?

ANSWER: Dear Lolly:

I am sorry for your loss.  This is always so hard.  Now that the joeys have come out of pouch, he is very likely attempting to mate with her again which can often seem like fighting.  There are also times when the male can injure a female during mating.  At 8 1/2 months, she is very young, but that is not usually a major factor in rejecting and/or cannibalizing joeys.  I just answered another question about this, a similar situation where there was "no stress" and "no changes."  

The two most common reasons for a joey to be rejected and/or cannibalized are diet and stress.  You have not told me what diet you are feeding, so I cannot comment as to whether it is a complete and sufficient diet.  Also, females that are pregnant, lactating and nursing require twice as much protein as called for in the normal diet.  So if your diet normally calls for a tablespoon of whatever your protein source is, usually mealworms, scrambled eggs or chicken, then you must double that for her.

Then we deal with stress.  You wrote that there have been "no changes or anything abnormal" but stress can be present in form that you may not be aware.  And the reality is that something did change eight days ago -- these gliders became parents for the first time.  Every little noise that may have been acceptable before may now be perceived as a threat to those babies.  Is there a dog, cat or small child that may have come near the cage?  Is the cage in a high traffic area, perhaps it's too cold or too light.  Also, you did not mention how long you have had these gliders or how bonded you are to them.  So you checking on them could be an added stress now that babies are on the scene.  

Since we do not know if the second joey is present, I would wait until the parents come out of the pouch to each, then check for the joey.  You should be able to see the joey clinging to mom's underside or she may leave it in the pouch.  Either way, that is the least stressful time to check for the joeys.  

If the joey is gone, their fighting indicates they have mated and she is likely pregnant again.  If you honestly and truly feel that neither stress or diet are a factor and you cannot improve upon their situation, then I would watch how the next pair of joeys are dealt with.  If they suffer the same fate, you will have no choice but to neuter this male and enjoy your gliders as pets.  

Please follow up to let me know if the second joey survived.

Best of luck with this pair,

Laurie

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you SOOO much for your quick response!!  After I sent the e-mail - I made them some scrambled eggs to bring them out of the pouch.  Unfortunately, the 2nd joey had the same fate as the first.

We have had them both since they were about 8 wks OOP.  We bought Roy along with another, but he became sick and died.  We bought Libbi as a new companion when Roy seemed to become depressed.  We do handle them often - not everyday or as often as we should - I will admit that.

We feed them Sugar Glider pellets and dried fruit & nuts (buy in bulk from the bird section) w/ nectar powder sprinkled on it.  Then we give them yogurt (w/o artificial sweeteners), peanut butter, scrambled eggs, mealworms, crickets, fruits, 100% fruit juice, and usually something from our dinner table (no salt or heavy sugar) to add variety and as treats.

We do have cats... the gliders are usually the ones picking on the cats!!  Totally not scared of them. (Through the cage- never out together- that's to scary!)  

They are in a very large cage in the liv rm.  That's where it has always been- not moved around.  If she is pregnant again, should I put a sheet over part of the cage like during daytime hours when it is brighter, traffic is higher, and the cats are awake?  (it would be very hard to move the cage)

At what point does the mom usually allow you to start handling the joeys without getting spooked?  Is this diet okay or should I get a calcium and/or protein supplement?  And is it possible to have new joeys grow to be strong, healthy, happy gliders after something like this happens?  I feel horrible and like most "grandparents", I feel like I should have done something different.  Thank you SOOOO much for your time & I'm sorry this is so long.  I have tried to do as much research online as I possible could - but not all answers could be found.  Once again - sorry, but THANK YOU!!  (Hope these details help you more)

Answer
Dear Lolly:

Please don't blame yourself.  Some sugar gliders will mate and reproduce without incident being fed pellets and pizza by a teenager that never takes them out and others will have issues while having the most caring owners.  Honestly, it probably happens more often than some people realize, because if they don't know the glider is pregnant, the joey can disappear as soon as it's out of pouch.  

There is hope for gliders with this type of history.  I have taken in pregnant gliders that were given up because they kept cannibalizing their joeys.  Once they came to me and got on a proper diet, they raised two healthy joeys and then we neutered the male, so all hope is not lost.  I believe the problem is both diet and habitat related.  Remember the cats didn't bother them -- until they had joeys. Also, when gliders go after cats and dogs, it is a stressful situation and to be truthful, they are trying to protect themselves.  I would try to locate their cage in a quiet place away from the cats.  The sheet won't really help keep them away from the cats.  Remember that day time is their night time.  It would be best if they were not in a high traffic, brightly lit area.  Honestly, better to have them in a separate bedroom or quiet area, especially if you want them to feel comfortable and secure enough to successfully raise their joeys.  

As far as diets go, I am not fond of "sugar glider pellets."  I would research one of the proven diets listed below.  You are doing good with fresh fruits and vegetables, mealworms, crickets, eggs and chicken and yogurt.  I would eliminate the nuts, peanut butter and table scraps.  Not because it's necessarily bad, but because you want them to concentrate on eating a good solid diet.  We use Priscilla's Diet, but you can find a list and research here:
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/98

They should also have a calcium supplement.  Make sure you use the proper supplement suited to the diet you choose.  

I have heard some good things about the HPW diet.  Most of all, pick one that works for you and the gliders and stick with it.  Don't mix and match and keep it simple.  Double up her protein intake.  It won't hurt to offer her a small amount of vanilla Ensure Plus along with her meals once you suspect she is pregnant again.  

Once the joeys come out of pouch, leave the gliders pretty much alone for a few days.  The joeys should open their eyes 10-12 days oop.  I didn't usually mess with the joeys too much before their eyes opened unless the mother was totally bonded and trusting of me.  In your case, and since she has a history, I would wait until the parents come out to eat and leave the joey in the pouch.  Then take the pouch out and take a look.  Make sure you have washed your hands before you handle the joeys, then put them back in the pouch and hang the pouch up again.  Hopefully, the parents won't get too upset.  When all conditions are right, they are on a good diet and don't feel threatened they will usually successfully raise their joeys.  

If on the other hand, you find they rejected or cannibalized again, make sure to get the male neutered.  

Best of luck,

Laurie