Training 2 Cairn terrier pups

Question
Thanks for your quick reply and suggestions--I have never had cairns before--had a Westie as a child, but we got her when she was older and already perfectly trained.  Our last dog was an Old English/terrier mix (adopted as a small puppy)we had to put her to sleep last summer, which was quite a loss.  She went to obedience training and was quickly trained in every way--not a smidge of alpha dog in her!

My pups are both female (spayed).  I take them outside as you suggested and about every 1 1/2 hours as I am home all day.  They do not seem to have a bowel movement soon after eating, so timing has been hard--but there is some predictability (first thing in the am and around noon) I have just started giving them small treats every time they potty outside, along with verbal praise (prior I was just using praise)

We do not have a fenced yard --we moved into a new home recently (another reason potty training is an issue!)and have to get some other things done first, so I am walking them on a leash.  We do have a large enclosed deck that they can have safe outside play on.

Ever since we got them at 6 weeks, (from a terrier rescue)I have crated, walked, fed, etc. them both together.  After doing some web research last week, I have separated them in different crates, feeding, pottying, walking, etc.  I still do let them free play together--they are very jealous of one another--can't hold one without the other having a fit.

I like the idea of the 2 separate classes--we live in a very rural part of CT and I will have to locate the classes.

Any other suggestions or info regarding temperament or training would be very much appreciated so that we can be successful in raising the girls.

Thank you!

Renee
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Followup To

Question -
Don't know exactly what I was thinking, but I adopted 2 female pups from the same litter at 7 weeks old--they are 8 months old now.  

I am having a huge difficulty training them (I am crating them), but they seem to want to only socialize with each other and potty training is a huge issue.

Some of the sites I have been on say that 2 puppies at one time is a disaster and giving one away is the only solution--we don't want to do that, but are really struggling.  Any advice would be so appreciated!

Answer -
Renee -

I have to ask if you've had cairns or other terrier before ?  The terrier temperment is quite different from many other breeds and even some trainers don't understand that

I do cairn terrier rescue work, and frankly we see this problem pretty frequently (since surrendering to a breed rescue gives the dog the very best possible appropriate placement)....

I am NOT, however suggesting that you surrender your babies. There is one thing that comes to my mind right off the bat and that is obedience school.... the ideal circumstance would be being able to train them  both at the same time, but in different classes.  I emphasize school because appropriate socialization is much better at a school than doing the training at home.

Do you have any friends with small dogs or gentle big dogs that your kids could play with in the fenced yard somewhere ?  I'm thinking that perhaps learning good interactions with outside dogs might make them more open to playing with their people too

House training can be very tough sometimes especially since they're ganging up against you.... The best tips are to potty them as soon as they are let out of their crates, and 10-15  minutes after eating. Especially with pups, pottying right after eating is very very normal.

Are you walking them or using a fenced yard ?  What are the genders ?... and make sure to clean with an enzyme cleaner as the other products will not break down the pheromones in the urine....

Thats for starters.... if you give me more info, I'm happy to make some more suggestions

-Beth Adams, Hobart NY
Col Potter Cairn Rescue Network   www.cairnrescue.com
Above & Beyond English Setter Rescue   www.esrescue.org


Answer
Renee -

I have a ton of empathy for you. Cairns are basically the most "feral" of that type of terrier and tend to be quite alpha - especially the females.  My vet says they are the breed you find hanging dead off the neck of a Rottie because they simply don;t know they're small.

I think you're definately headed in the right direction with separate crates.

I live in the boonies of upstate NY, so I know all about how hard finding help in rural areas can be.

One good suggestion would be to consider joining a Yahoo Group that I belong to. It is called Cairn Rescue Mentoring and is intended as a great place to ask questions and get tons of very savvy advice.  The group is comprised of folks who are learning about cairns and folks who foster and rehab cairns....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CairnRescueMentoring/

My impression would be that anything you can do to do their activities separate would help with them focussing on each other all the time.

The other suggestion is an approach called "Nothing in Life is Free" - where they gain no priviledges without behaving properly.  Here are a couple pretty good explanation:

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/nothingfree.htm

http://www.nomorehomelesspets.org/behavior/dog/nilif.htm

oh - and a very very simple command that works very nicely when you're trying to work on other things is "Look at Me".  It's very easy to train, and the hand signal is you putting your index finger by your eye.  It brings the dog's attention to you instead of whatever it was doing before.

all you have to do is know what a very highly desirable treat is (small amount). Hold it with your index and thumb next to your eye and say "Look at Me.".... It won;t take more than 3-5 times in a row, a couple of times a day for a couple of days to have this command down quickly. Don;t be tight on the treats with this one since refocusing the attention onto the person is vital for doing all the other things you're going to want to do with these brats !

Yell if there's anything more specific or other resources you'd like....

-Beth