Strange Betta sickness, not clear what it has.

Question
Yeah, I agree with you about feeling like a failure. I saved him twice from  other diseases, but the third time was the charm. The site you linked me to was the site that I came across as well, about curing dropsy. I'm pretty bummed out too because he was in our living room and every time you came home you saw him, and anytime I did my homework I'd look over to my left and there was in his tank and when he was healthy he'd swim around and flair all night. I found another good site about dropsy but it refered to koi fish, I guess the person has cured the dropsy multiple times and for a long term, and he gives cautions about why people fail at treating it. I'd never give up on a fish and euthanize it. It makes me think about how many fishes have been euthanized for a simple swim bladder disease or something like that. I am sad about the outcome but satisfied that I did everything I could possibly do, that helps me sleep better at night. Long live conoco indeed :)
-Benny

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Followup To
Question -
Well dropsy claimed another fish. Conoco passed away today. I found him laying with his head on a rock, he looked peaceful....if a fish can look peaceful. I decided against "treating him" with antibiotics or whatever else...and stressing him out the last two days of his life. I already knew he was going to die because he wouldn't eat, he couldnt get to the surface very well, he was now bloated, and he was pale, he was obviously terminally ill. I just covered his tank with a nice dark towel and gave him as much of a stress free environment as I could these last two days. I didn't change his water the last two days because he gets stressed out enough when I change his water when hes healthy, let alone fighting an illness. My only conclusions from this ordeal were: Neither Maracyn nor Maracyn 2 worked individually or together although some days they seemed to improve his activity levels. Gel-tek tetracycline may as well have been poison to the fish because conoco, who was still able to eat and loved eating, refused to eat it. I'm not sure if it would work in earlier stages of dropsy because I tried using it to him much later in the sickness. Epsom salt seemed to relieve the bloat to a point, but giving the epsom salt bath basically swelled him up very rapidly, so I wouldn't advise anyone to do that. I don't understand why its so difficult to diagnose/treat something like dropsy, if its bacterial it should be able to be cured with antibiotics its not like its a super virulent, antibiotic resistant bacteria or something. It's hard to treat a disease if there's no good literature on the subject. All I found in the 2 or 3 weeks or researching was speculation on what dropsy was caused by, with most sites saying: "euthaniasia is suggested" great help guys! I mean if I have cancer lets just kill me because we don't want to research the disease or try to cure it, right? I saw some sites on a dropsy "cure" where 2 individuals saved their fish (tropical) from dropsy. The commonalities I saw were that they both had their fish in pretty low temperatures, ie: 70-72 degrees. They both kept the fish in a pretty stress free/sun free environment (looking back at the salt bath stress I believe this is very very important). For one of the dropsy "cures" the tank was completely covered with black paper. Increasing the temperature to 84 like I did obviously had no significantly good effect. Both "cures" did complete water changes every couple days. Both used epsom salt. And both used antibiotics which have fungal activity (maroxy and kanacyn) in the last stages of treatment. Which creates the question about what causes death in dropsy. If you're using an antibiotic you're not only killing harmful strains of bacteria but you're also killing good bacteria. When both bacterias are dead then theres room for other competators to colonize, ie: fungi. So maybe the reason that fish are dying from dropsy is because the use of antibiotics is successful in killing ALL the bacteria in the fish but then the subsequent use of antibiotics has a detrimental effect because you're then killing the good bacteria which are trying to recolonize and compete the hypothetical dropsy killer a fungus. It's all speculation but it might have some truth to it because another commonality in the "cures" for dropsy that I read were that both used an antibiotic first (maracyn 2), then the antibiotic was totally removed from the water with a complete water change because the fish started to swell more with maracyn 2 alone. Both "cures" then started using a fungus killer/antibiotic with fungal activity. I personally feel, it's silly that there is no cure for dropsy. Even if there are many causes of it. I mean I don't expect all forms of dropsy to be able to be cured, some may be genetic mutations or something. But if its really an internal bacterial infection it doesn't seem like it would be that hard to treat. Any how this ends my rant about dropsy. I'd like to thank you for your support Karen. Sorry for making you read my long long messages. Hopefully conoco died to help another fish with dropsy somewhere down the line. Don't make my mistakes! And cherish each little flair your betta gives you, because you miss it when its gone. I'll always remember conoco when he looked like his tail was so long that it was hard to swim :) and when he made little bubble nests and flaired at me when I turned the lamp on. RIP little conoco fish.
-Benny

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Followup To
Question -
Yes conoco lives by himself in a 2 gallon tank with a filter and heaters. Well, as you know conoco has been getting sicker and sicker. Yesterday I decided I needed to do something. So I took him out of his tank and tried to give him a salt bath and tetracycline. He doesnt like the gel-tek at all and refuses to eat it. So I kind of fooled him by dropping it on his pellet which he does still eat. Well it worked for about 2 pellets and thats it, he kinda threw the gel-tek off the second pellet. I just had him in his salt bath for like 10 mins. I went to check on him and he was very very bloated and very "dropsy" looking. Before he got bloated I could see that he was already pinecone looking. But, my guess is he got super stressed out and the salt wasn't helping him so he progressed even faster. After seeing him swell up so fast, I immediately put him back in his aquarium. I also thought about how much he much he doesn't like being seen right now. Before he would come up to you and flair and since hes been sick he hides if he sees you or if the sun is shining though he tends to like to hide in the back so I decided that im just going to give him his privacy. I dont have any maracyn 2 left so I'm suck with just maracyn 1 and tetracycline which he refuses to eat. He was basically dead yesterday so I gave him some privacy and covered his tank in a towel expecting to see him dead when I woke up again, but surprisingly hes not dead yet. I feel pretty helpless now so I'm just going to give him his privacy and give him some pellets and brine shrimp and leave him alone. I'd be very surprised if he made it through the week. The "good" news is I know for sure its something that bloats him up like dropsy, he doesn't like light, a high concentration of epsom salt doesnt work, he likes eating when he can, and he hates tetracycline-gel tek. The bad news of course is that its just progressing slowly and theres just about nothing I can do about it. Thanks for your time.
  
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Followup To
Question -
I may have stumbled onto something, but its still difficult to interpet. Well what I did was stopped the maracyn 2 treatment, took more water out of his tank to raise the temperature, and then started giving him maracyn 1. The first 2 days he showed pretty good improvements. His swelling hadn't increased much, His activity increased and he seemed like he could recover. But then the water temperature went down to 78 because the temperature lowered in our house! As we know (but for some reason I forgot) less water causes more fluctuation in water temperature. And I think, as a reaction to the low water temp, the bacteria inside him repopulated because hes again inactive and he looks like some bloat has come back. It's really frustrating. So now I'm just going to put more water in his tank and I'm going to get another heater to hopefully get the temperature around 82 degrees or slightly higher. I think if I get the water up to 82 and give him maracyn 1 for a while he could improve. If he doesn't then I'll do a full water change and try tetracyclin...I'm still saving that as my last resort. About being sure that he has dropsy....I'm not convinced either but it seems most likely. I mean hes not constipated or something. From what I've read, dropsy isnt a specific disease anyhow, its just a symptom so it could be anything that results in him not being able to excrete liquid from his body... like a kidney infection? I was reading from another page that dropsy caused by bacteria usually results in very rapid bloating, so that makes me question if he even has dropsy because his swelling is gradual and at times in my treatment its been all but eliminated. But his head was definitely getting pineconey and his body was definitely swelling a bit. Also, the bloat could have been controlled because I used antibiotics and epsom salt almost immediently. Still his main weird symptoms are his crooked laying on the floor of the tank most of the day and his swollen lips with the light ring around the lips. I know if its dropsy I have a low low low chance of curing him but, oh well. If he doesn't give up neither will I. Until I see him floating in the tank, Im going to try all kinds of weird things for him. Next on my list: get a new heater! Thanks for your help and advice. My other suspicions would be that he has a swim bladder disorder again? I saw a picture of a fish that looked like him on the internet and I lost the site, I'll try to find it so I can link you.
-Benny



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Followup To
Question -
Thanks for your help through all the ordeal. Conoco seems worse off behavior wise and better off looks wise because his swelling is basically gone. Although due to his behavior, I don't think hes going to last long unfortunetly. I was treating him with the maracyn 2 and at first it seemed like he was getting better. He swam a bit more the next 2 days (although kinda crooked), and even did a "half-flair" to my sister :( but since then his activity level has been very low. He hides most the day in his rock now and he doesn't even like to hang out when he thinks we're going to give him food. I'm not giving up on him though. His water is pretty good I got the temp to 81 degrees by removing some water, and the ph has been the same. But due to the lack of signs of recovery, tomorrow I'm changing my antibiotic treatment. I just figured that if he was going to get better he'd slowly show recovery not relapse, so my conclusion is the maracyn 2 isn't working. As to why, I don't know. It had an initial effect on the population of bacteria but now it's effects are gone, could it be due to epsom salt? I know epsom salt has magnesium and sulfur, I've read people talk about sulfur's detrimental effect on sulfa drugs but they never talk about magnesium's effect on antibiotics...which is to my understanding: reduced absorption of Fluoroquinolones aka tetracycline. I wish I knew the threshold of betta fish with antibiotics because I don't want to give him too much antibiotic. I understand hes critically ill even though he looks fine. Since there is no real treatment for dropsy I guess I'll just go with my instinct which says to change his water, give him either tetracycline or minocycline without epsom salt in his tank and I guess I'll just see if it has a good effect on his behavior. None of the antibiotics in the tetracycline family (tetracycline, doxycycline, minocycline) should be taken at the same time with calcium supplements, or with any other minerals such as magnesium, iron, etc. which have the same chemical valance as calcium. So right now I'm really just confused on whether I should start with the minocycline (maracyn) or tetracycline treatment first. The main reason I am leaning towards the tetracycline (gel-tek) is it is directly ingested by the fish and it's a shorter suggested treatment time of 3 days. I'll let you know the outcome, hopefully its good news that will help someone else in the same situation. Doesn't hurt to be optimisitic regardless of how unrealistic it is.
-Benny

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Followup To
Question -
Hi Karen, thanks for the response. Okay I wont try to adjust the pH anymore. I don't know how I would get the water temperature higher without removing water from the tank. I think I can only remove about 1 more cup of water because any lower and the filter would not be in the water. I made the mistake of not removing the carbon filter when I treated him with maracyn 1 and 2 earlier. When I used maracyn 1 and 2 together they weren't effective but like I said it could have been because I had the carbon filter was still in.
I decided "conoco" (the betta) had dropsy and I did some research on what bacteria most people thought caused dropsy. I found out it was a aeromonas strand, thus a gram negative antibiotic would be effective. With that I decided that marcyn 1 wouldn't be effective because it treats gram positive. So I discontinued maracyn 1 in order to perhaps not over-run his immune system with antibiotics. IE: maybe he has flora that are gram positive and compete with the aeromonas strands. Do you think I should use the maracyn 1 again?
I also went and bought a "gel-tek tetracycline" which is basically medication the betta is supposed to eat and it effects aeromonas bacteria. I know dropsy is considered an internal infection so I figured he needed to ingest some medication. I have not given him this medicine yet because I know tetracycline is a more powerful antibiotic and I'm skeptical of the suggested dosage of "5 drops per fish" because he is so small. I also wanted to see if the maracyn 2 works without the carbon filter.
Currently I am giving the betta maracyn 2 and I have his water about 79 degrees. He looked a little swollen the other day so I added a bit more epsom salt to his tank (a small pinch). As a result his body swelling seems to be all but gone and his forehead swelling went down to where it's barely noticable, but still present. He is still eating fine, but not very active. Most of the day he lays on the floor kind of sideways (unless he thinks we're giving him food).
The most strange thing to me would still be that his lips are protruding, mainly his upper lip is not as small as it should be, and there is a light ring around his lips so it looks like he's puckering his lips. I also noticed that he has mild protrusions on his dorsal side (which may be more prominent because the rest of his swelling subsided), right about where his gill covers are. It looks sort of like 2 symetrical lumps/protrusions on the dorsal side of fish, almost like a horns are trying to grow out from there, but it maybe just how hes built? I've been trying to find out what they are with no luck, but my guess is that's what's effecting his swimming because he doesn't seem to be very bloated anymore. Hopefully its not like a tumor or something because I don't have chemo drugs lol.
Anyhow I'll TRY to end the second essay here, please let me know what you think I should do with him as far as the maracyn's/tetracycline, goes. Since epsom salt helped his bloating should I add a bit more? What food would be best for vitamins? Right now we're giving him "Hykari Betta Bio-Gold" pellets (and pre-soaking them before we give him them). But we also have "Hykari multivitamin enriched brine shrimp" and we also have "Tetra freeze dried bloodworms". Thanks so much for your time, and just to let you know I love bettas too. Which is why I've sort of put off school this week researching betta ailments!
-Benny

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Followup To
Question -
I have a betta fish and it has many weird symptoms. I thought the fish had dropsy first, and it might still im not sure. The fish has a very slight pineconey appearance on its head. The pineconey appearance lessens as it goes away from its head, thus the pinecones are most noticable on what would be the fishes forehead. As a result the fish has a dolphin like profile. The lips also look to be swollen like it got punched in the lip, the top lip is noticibly bigger. Its abdomen doesnt appear to be very swollen, but it does seem to be very slightly bloated. The betta has an appetite still which doesnt fit the dropsy profile i've read online thus far. The betta has difficulty swimming but I don't think its normal swim bladder disease because he's only fed 3 pellets a day and about once a week he wasnt fed or was given a pea. But anyhow the betta seems to work hard to swim to the top and drops pretty fast likes hes too heavy to swim. His behavior right now is just to lay at the bottom of the tank kinda sideways and seemingly conserve his energy. The betta did have swim bladder before and he was completely sideways but we fed him peas and he was fine in a couple days. From then on we continued feeding him a pea once or twice a week and he'd eat them as best he could. We have marbles at the bottom of his tank so some peas parts got inbetween the marbles which is why i think he got sick again in the first place. Thus far we've cleaned his water out almost completely. I added some epsom salt to his tank and marycn 1 and 2 (because I thought he had dropsy). The swelling seems to have gone down a bit since we treated him. The water temp is about 78 degrees. And right now im working on adding a little bit of drinking water to his tank to slowly lower the ph which is a bit above 7.8 (too high for him). It's been 3 days and although he swims a bit more then when i thought he was basically dead, he's still very very inactive and still has love for the food. I would think it was just swim bladder if it wasnt for the pineconey forehead, very slightly puffy eyes, and swollen lips. Making his water better has seemed to help him regain his color but thats about it. Sorry for such the long essay I just wanted to be as clear about his symptoms as I could. I hope you have some suggestions or heard of something similar to what he has.
Answer -
Dear Benny, thank you for your long essay! It's good to have as many symptoms and descriptions as possible!

~Sounds like he has some sort of advanced bacterial infection. Although I am not for sure at all what exactly it might be as it is very difficult to diagnos any fish disease without seeing the fish and doing a thorough comparison with descriptions in books or on the internet.
Fortunately there is some hope you can treat him with an good general antibiotic- I would continue with the Maracyn 1 and Maracyn 2 treatment and do a full water change if he lives in a container (not a aquarium with filter) or at least 70% for a aquarium. And continue with these water changes while also using the medication. Make certain his water temperature is at least 80-82 F for his best recovery. Maintaining a constistant warm temperature is important for the health of betta splendens at all times.

With clean water, a diet high in vitamins, and Maracyn 1 and Maracyn 2 medication, your betta should be off to an healing start. You may also wish to add some aquarium salt to his water to further help treat his bacterial infections.
When doing water changes--always make sure the replacement water is equal in temperature to that of his aquarium and make sure it's dechlorinated, you may already know this but it's well-worth note this.

For now at least, please don't try to adjust his pH, it did not cause his disease and may stress him even more if the flucuations are rapid and frequent. All fish thrive on a Stable not Specific water chemistry

I have a great love for bettas. I'm really sorry to read what your betta's been through. I do hope this helps and feel free to keep me updated on his recovery or with anyother concerns you may have.

Best wishes,
Karen~
Answer -
Hi Benny,
I would continue with the Maracyn and Maracyn 2 medications. Because of the broad range of possible causes of dropsy, a good antibiotic tha treats both gram-negative and gram positive bacteria, Maracyn 1 and 2 would be your best bet as they are designed to be used in combination and treat both bacteria strains. ALWAYS be sure to remove your carbon from the filter before any medication treatment. Epsom salt is good also as you know.
Remember daily large water changes also help greatly. Never shock him with flucuating temperatures or any sort, especially with replacement water.
I'm sorry to say conoco sounds very ill. Unfortunately it is well known that dropsy is a disease very rarely sucessfully treated. Not even a well-advanced betta breeder I know of has sucessfully treated any of her dropsy infected patients. All you can do is try your best.

Besides that I would continue with Maracyn and Maracyn 2 along with daily water changes, being sure to avoid any shocks in water temperature. And epsom salt treatment plus a warm temperature...Vitamin enriched food is very beneficial as well! enriched brine shrimp might work!

I really hope this helps! I'm sorry to hear about Conoco, that's really sad...

My best wishes are with Conoco and you....
Karen~
Answer -
Dear Benny,
If Conoco really has Dropsey I am sorry to say you have only a small chance of sucessfully treating him. I hope were not diagnosing treatments for the wrong illness should he not in fact have Dropsey but some other bloating illness. Dropsey doesn't typically affect the head which makes your case very hard to determine. The best thing I can say for what he might have is a bacterial infection that has caused swelling and pressure to build up in his head region. Perhaps you should stop the MARDEL products and completely get rid of the Maracyn medications with water changes and try the Tetracyclin. Since we both don't exactly know what Conoco is infected with, I would try what you said about changing his water frequently, stopping epsom salt use and Tetracycline gel-tek. This medication may be more effective for his specific illness since external treatments don't seem to help.

I'm really sorry I can't give a straight answer as to what your poor betta is infected with. But I will promise to find more info and try to get back to you as soon as I come up with more information from research.
Fish illnesses are so hard to diagnose without actually seeing the betta himself... :(

Well, I really hope this helps!
Best wishes,
Karen~
Answer -
Hi Benny,
So does Conoco live in an aquarium? Most bettas I get questions about live in bowls or vases. For warm temperatures for these tiny enviroments where no heater would work I would recommend setting a small lamp next to his bowl and where it's given off heat will keep his small bowl/tank warm. Consistant warm temperature and clean water with plenty of frequent changes at least every day also help in his recovery. I'm quite certain he has some sort of internal bacterial infection in his head region which might also be why his lips are the way they are.Due to the unknowing that of the specific bacteria strains present and possibly their resistance to certain meds... I believe tetracycline gel-tek food may be your best bet though. But If he did seem to improve with a warmer temperature and Maracyn medication that is a good sign. Preventing stressful enviromental factors is vital for recovery of ill fish. Try giving him vitamin enriched foods as much as you can. And always make sure the replacement water for his water changes is equal in temperature to his tank and is properly dechlorinated.

Let me know how Conoco is doing if you want...
I wish him the best!
Karen~ keep me posted
Answer -
Benny, hang in there! ;-)
I know you're tired of hearing this but I am at a loss as to what he might have truly... :( The best thing I can think of and what other aquarists agree on is and internal bacteria infection in the head region as i've said before. Treatment would include daily 70%water changes, consistant 80-82F temperature, and the maracyn medication. Letting him be as stressfree as possible includes insuring his water is at it's utter most best and that he doesn't feel frightened. Covering his aquarium is also a good idea. But make sure he can still get to atmospheric air of course.

I think you mentioned having Brine shrimp that was vitamin enriched? Try to feed that for most of his meals and supplement with his pellets once a day.

I thoroughly understand how frustrating this is for you to see Conoco so bad off. But nobody seems to have an exact answer as to what the exact illness is or what strain of bacteria is present or what medications are  surefire way to treat it. It's very sad for me to read of his condition.
If I could just find more info about this strange illness I would certainly let you know right away.

If you truly don't believe Maracyn is working--I think I would Try keeping him out of epsome salt and try to get him to eat tetracycline on his foods the best way you can. ((Even try the brine shimp if you can))

I'm so sorry. Poor Conoco:(

Let me know if you want on how hes doing....

Best wishes as always,
Karen~
Answer -
Benny, Now you've got me depressed...... :(
It's always terribly sad to hear someone say their fish passed away regardless of how much I tried to help them.
It's also hard to explain how it makes me feel--It makes me feel like a failure, or perhaps I haven't done 'enough' Especially since I certainly know how it feels to lose a beloved fish.

I'm am truly and honestly very sad to hear about conoco....
Although I am afraid there was probably little you could do.
The reason dropsey is almost impossible to treat is because it's not only caused by bacterial infections, but can also be the symptom of a viral,parasitic, or fungal infection resulting in the buildup of fluids and damaging vital organs. The unfortunate truth is, nobody really knows what exactly causes dropsey. Everybody has their theories and opinions. Dropsey is so hard to treat also because when the symptoms show up, internal damage has usually gone too far for the poor fish to be brought back to good health again.

I feel nobody has done enough thorough research and study on this disease to find a reliable cure.  Every aquarist and all betta breeders I know of haven't been able to cure their Dropsey infected Fish. Here is a website which I would doubt would be little help to you but still the writers claim they've cured the disease and they list their methods. It's not really different from what you've did but--here's the link-
"www.waynesthisandthat.com/killer.htm" scan down for dropsey issues.

I completely agree with you on not giving up on a fish just because he has dropsy. Just think how it'd be if the first time you had the flu, somebody shot you in the head. Even though there really isnt a cure, it is well worth a try for our beloved fish.

I know there is no one good thing I can say to come to a conclusion to this all. It's very caring that you tried your best to help Conoco and it really makes me feel like a failure to hear his sad ending even though I know that this was probably the outcome of Dropsey.

Remember Conoco is in the great pond in heaven now.
Long live little Conoco......

-Karen

Answer
Yes, perhaps Aquarists like you and I will be the ones to look into depth about dropsey's causes and RELIABLE treatment. I believe, however, that it may takes lots of tests and research to be able to determin the actual cause and provide proper treatment. How to prevent the internal damage by the bloating I do not know. But perhaps we will find out one day. Perhaps a caring aquarist like you will.

Long live little Conoco....

Best wishes,
Karen~ I am sorry again for what happened