Renee! Its JC with the popeye discus need more help!

Question
QUESTION: I administered the salt last night... watched them all day today.. he's darkening... his eyes remain clear and bulging.. perhaps larger. not sure, but definitely not noticeably better.. I dosed half dose of salt in the late evening today. He seems to be losing his balance, he wont move from the corner, he's staying as low to the gravel as possible. looks like sometimes struggling a bit to stay upright.

Up close I noticed he had tiny little pin holes I hadn't noticed before. I noticed this on one other of my discus several weeks ago, now this sick one has a few on his face, very tiny, don't know if this is hole in the head, or just nothing. I took another photo of him.. couldn't get the holes to show up on my camera to well but if you're looking you'll see them, all the other discus are normal with the salt dose, eating fine, but my poor non-eating discus still has big clear eyes... and he looks to be losing his balance and color. =(

attached is a photo. should I put him in the hospital tank, and dose him with meth blue?

I have a photo of the one discus (that is eating fine with all the other discus, never exhibited weakness, but I noticed small pin holes in his head a few weeks ago, hope you can see them in the camera on his face. he seems to be fine though
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0012.jpg

and I have a photo of the current discus who has the bulging eyes that has been fasting for the past weeks and also tiny little pin holes on his face. don't know if the pin holes are anything but it may be worth you to look at.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v143/New_Y0rk/GEDC0011-1.jpg

let me know if these two links worked okay for you to see

I really can't thank you enough for your help.. I don't have anyone else on my side helping me through this, you're all I have! You're all my discus has =(

Also "allexperts" is giving me limited questions to you, if you wouldn't mind contacting me through personal email, it is . or I will have to start all over with another person.

I really appreciate it, sorry to be so helpless! Thanks a bundle Renee!

ANSWER: Hi Jc, I'm here.  I'm so sorry...it is HIH, but not a huge case, at this point.  Although, the balance issues sound serious.  Increase oxygenation, pull the carbon from the filter, add filtered water, not tap please, and try to get better water quality for him at this point.

Change out 10% of the water, and don't add more salt for now.  Let's see if it's the salt is too much for him right now, while he's so down.  Discus are sooo sensitive.  I've not had any die from a salt treatment, but it's not impossible.  Especially in an already-weakened fish with Popeye & sadly, what appears to be an early stage of HIH.

I'm going to add to, and change my advice a bit at this point.  I was not aware you had HIH, which has no actual single cause, in all cases.  It is caused by several things and several possible things, and each case would have differing reasons.

Water quality, a lack of nutrients and trace elements required for his life, and it can also be parasitic by nature.  

This is what I'd do if this were me:  Heat: 85/86 F.  Not much higher.  Discus are super-sensitive, and if he's falling over, I suggest to take a temp reading also.  Too much heat may be an issue.  

Let's keep the salt for parasites/bacteria/protozoa (leave it at what dose it is after you remove 10% of the water and replace it with filtered water tonight), and Marycin for infection, better food for quality of diet, and HIH repair product to induce healing.  You can add the Marycin while the salt is also in the system.  I am not huge on chemicals, but Marycin is a broad-spectrum antibiotic of the Erythromycin family and it's an excellent recovery tool for sick fish in this condition.

Please watch this video.  Good advice, although I would not put my fish in either of his tanks.  The 90 is sub-standard for safety and the other is way too small.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/holenhead.html has the product and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhi-vyv94IM&feature=fvsr is a video of another fish with HIH, although somewhat more advanced than yours.

I agree with the food he's chosen and the HIH product.  I think both are awesome products, personally.

So, in short, you should pick up some Marycin, administer it to the entire tank.
Change out 10% of water from the tank and replace with filtered water.  Don't add more salt.  Leave what's in there, in there for now.  See if the fish changes and check temperatures.  Please maintain the fish with the HIH product if they survive.  The bad news is it's very contagious and it's usually fatal, but not in all cases.

Combined with Popeye, his immunity is really low.  He is very stressed right now.  He may also be light-sensitive.  If you have a bubbler with a fine stone, you may also consider adding that to the water to increase oxygenation.

Check the ammonia levels.  

I realize this response is redundant.  Trying to answer fast, without much editing to wording so you can get a move on this.

To contact me further tonight, please use the "followup" option at All Experts.  I have configured it to accept multiple followups from people who are having issues, so you can followup without having to ask an entirely new question, without tripping the system's counter.

I am here for another hour or so, and I'm so sorry he looks worse.  That wasn't the plan.  We can't save them all...but we certainly try, so don't lose hope.

Should it not work to simply "followup" the questioning, try my private email at this address.  So the system won't break it up, you have to decypher it a bit.

Fish deeva at y mail do t co m no spaces or dashes.  No underscores.  Just as it sounds out.  I will paste it here, but like yours, it will probably not show for you.

fishdeeva@ymail.com

REVISION: JC, come to think of it, change out 25% water tonight, rather than 10%.  It would take out that extra half tsp per gallon.  


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you so much Renee! pfff if only I had said something earlier! I could have had this on the right track 2 weeks ago.

I don't have an R/O unit =( or a brita or any sort of water filtering system. Is it possible to buy something that goes over the faucet that filters? will that help? I have well water that has low PH...I was told that was good enough to keep discus =( BUT! I do have some jugs of Poland spring... will that do? I will have to put them in my big water change tub with the heater and warm it up before I can pour it in, should I still properly dose the water with seachem prime and api water conditioner as I usually do? I have 2 water towers in my house so we get 3 jugs a week approx, so I can use that for now if that will work. I'm sure it's much purer since it's drinking water?

I'm heading tomorrow to the fish store!

I will add a third fine bubbler to the tank in addition to the already running 2 bubbler to increase oxygen.

My hood has a daylight, a low blue led light, and then a dark moonlight. I can run the low blues during day and the dark moon at night for now, no bright lights...

I'll look for the black water treatment and the Maracyn as well as the hold n head guard. I will be treating with Maracyn and hole-n-head guard at the same time? That hikari food looks too big for the discus. Should I stop with the frozen bloodworms/ frozen beef heart and the tetracolor granules, and try something hikari that's sized for discus?


THANKS Sorry for so many questions =(

Answer
Hello JC,

No chemicals added to this water, please.

Most stores have R/O water refill stations for people who bring in those big 5 gallon blue bottles to refill.  I pay 1 dollar per five gallon blue bottle.

I wouldn't put chemicals in if I could avoid it and if you get the R/O water, you can avoid chemicals, however, whatever you choose is up to you...I just think the fish is going to be exposed to enough chemicals over the next few weeks.  

Prime is a good product.

I just believe whole-heartedly that good health begins with good water and the best of everything.  My pet peeve, perhaps...especially with a sick fish.

Okay, so Poland spring will help.  Warming in a tub is fine.

The food is a good combination.  I would add to that Discus are insectivorous carnivores in the wild.  That is why food over the counter is not nutritious enough.  It is made of fish bone meal, etc.  Not of dead bugs and meat.  So, the combination you mention is great.  Bloodworms are good also.  

You are welcome.  Hope that the fish makes it and that nobody else erupts with both maladies...I expect that everyone will get the HIH and you may lose some fish if not treated right now.  

You are lucky you caught it when you did.  With the holes still being pinhole sized, there is a chance of nipping it before it gets severe.

:)