update on greenbroke appy-several new questions

Question
QUESTION: Hi Denise,
I have been working a lot and have not had a lot of time for my guy. I did get to where he was comfortable with all the tack. In fact I put the pad on top of his head on a lark and he just stood quietly and did nothing. what a blessing.
I had a little incident that I was not sure was going to work out well. My daughter came over and turned the other horses loose and did not go get him. He was rather antsy so I went and got him and haltered him and was leading him out when my daughter yelled at me that I was letting him push me around and she grabbed the lead rope to yank on him. I pushed her hand off and let her know calmly that it was not her horse. His head shot up naturally with the fast movement but he did not go anywhere. thank goodness. when I got to the end of the walkway he pivoted and turned toward me. there is a slope there out into the field and I was slightly off balance and the rope slipped out of my hands and he took off across the turn out area. It was obvious he has done this many times in the past before I owned him as he was careful to not step on the rope as he was running.
I thought oh great! Now I have to start all over. When he ran back up to the forward end the halter and lead were missing and I walked down and found it. I approached him slowly because I was not sure if he was going to act out or not. He did not, I haltered him and tied him to a tree and went and gathered the other horses up. he was a champ. then I walked him in and out of the area where he got away to see if he was going to pull away or not. he did not. whew for the second time! I think if i had not been doing the exercises you suggested that this could have turned out very differently. I was getting ready to lunge him saddled on the long lines. I ground drove him once in the snaffle and he did very well.I had someone at his head to help direct until he got what i was asking. I usually use a caveson for ground driving and frankly I did not notice a difference between the two, what is the best thing to use?
also why do you start them in a snaffle before you go to the bosal?
A few days ago I fell on wet ground and cracked a couple of ribs so I have to stop his ground training but still wanted to do something with him so that there is some consistency. Do you have any suggestions that does not involve to much raising your arms ?

ANSWER: Hi Siski!

I'm so sorry to hear about your accident.  I hope you have a complete and speedy recovery.  

The progression to a bridle horse starts with the snaffle bit, then into the hackamore or bosal (same things, different names)next is the two rein, and then finally straight up in the bridle.  With the snaffle you can be more precise in your requests to the horse.  You can isolate parts more accurately and be kindergarten clear.  The bosal is a more advanced step for the horse.  Many people today get the progression a bit out of order and why, I'm not quite sure.  There is a misconception about the  bosal.  People think it is softer than the snaffle and in fact it is!  It requires a greater understanding from the horse about what is being asked.  It requires that the horse and rider understand the use of all of the aides in a much more subtle fashion.  You do not have as effective impact on the direct rein in the bosal.  Just the mechanics and physics of how it works makes it very difficult to maintain a proper bend if using the rein alone if the horse does not understand the leg, proper bend, and balance.  If you have to pull in a bosal the risk is that a green horse will lead with the lower jaw.  Riding in a hackamore without being ready and proper progression from the snaffle leads to some very strange braces in the horse.  Braces I would much rather avoid and only head up the communication chain when very ready!  

Now would be a good time to start using your invisible driving lines.  This can be done in the round pen without any lines at all.  This will solve both issues you are having.  What to use...nothing!  What to do without raising your arms...invisible driving lines!  So long as you are able to halter and lead your horse to the round pen!  Yikes, ribs take SO long to heal and are so painful.  

Now would be a great time to catch up on watching tons of training DVD's and your reading!  In Bucks groundwork DVD, he shows the invisible driving lines.  It is the most fun to do, and magic to watch Buck!  It is just the process of influencing the horse with your body and moving around the pen as though you had driving lines attached to your horse.  To move the horse forward, step toward the flank and add pressure with your body to drive forward.  To turn right draw on the right eye while adding pressure to the left eye to move the horse to the right.  It will become very clear if you have the chance to watch Buck's DVD.  The process of driving without lines helps you hook your horse on, makes him understand your body language better, gives you better long distance control of your horse.  It is very similar to how the lead mare or stallion is a wild band can move the whole herd with such efficiency.  You can do the same thing.  No arm raising at all!  

Finally, I'm so glad things worked out with your App!  I always say that if the training is meaningful to the horse it always sticks!  Also, the concept that Ray Hunt shares of stopping and starting over is such a gift.  Ray says never try and go through something bad and come out good, stop and start over!  That is just what you did.  You stopped and started over.  No harm, no foul!  You did not catch your horse up with anger.  He got loose and ran around.  So what!  You caught him and just carried on, that was the best thing in the world.  Once he got loose and had a bit of a wander, there was nothing you could do about that.  He was off and it was over!  When ever something like this happens, just start over.  No matter what it is.  If you get bucked off, it is over!  Get up, dust yourself off and start over, simple, as it should be.

You are right on track Siski.  Keep up the good work.  Take it easy for now and heal!  Much joy to you this Holiday Season!  Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!  

Smiles, Denise

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Merry Christmas and a Happy Healthy New Year Denise. Thank you for the ideas and well wishes. I love the invisible lines Idea. That will work great!

Your explanation of the snaffle to bosal makes total sense. Yes, fine tuning and clear instuctions. I am beginning to see why he reared on that 'trainer'.

On the subject of bitting. I have him in an O ring snaffle stainless steel 21mm. He has a rather small lip area but a very high pallette. He had also been bitted before I bought him in a too small curb that cut the corners of his mouth so I want to be especially careful of what I use and to be very delicate. I was reading about different bits and am not really sure if I should change to an eggbutt or D-ring sweet iron with copper. He mouths the bit continuously. I don't believe in the wrinkle or 'smile' method. I place the bit where it is in the center of the bars. I read that horses love sweet iron and I read that it is not good for them. sheesh! any thoughts? Also when he is free lunging should I have him bitted with a surcingle and side lines or is that down the road? So far I have not used a surcingle just an old saddle, double benefit he is saddled and eventually when I add weight to the saddle he is more prepared for mounted work. I have an old saddle without stirrups we put a pack type arrangement on, we used to use it out at the horse rescue with the mustangs and just turned them loose to get used to something on their back. from there someone else took over and I was so busy doctoring I rarely had time to watch the next steps.

I have to tell you this is a very vast enterprise and so rewarding. It excites me to get up each day to see what we can accomplish. Besides , if something happened to me I would want to make sure that he will be loved and cherished as much as I do him. And there is no better way of being cherished than being willing and obediant. I told my daughter if I somehow could not finish him to sell him to a trainer or as unbroke so the person would be delighted he knew a few things and their expectations would not cause him any harm. I worry about that as he is quite headstrong, and I assume that is from the environment he came from as a defense mechanism. My goal is to let him learn us two leggeds can be quite gentle and caring.
well, here's to a great and prosperous 08!

ANSWER: Hi Siski!

The first thing that jumps out at me here is that your App was in the curb bit.  The curb bit is a bridle bit...a signaling bit...or straight up in the bridle.  This happened to the poor fellow long before he was ready.  I see so many horses that are forced into this position and it is sad.  A bridle bit means that the horse relies on cues from the rider that are not rein or bit dependent.  The horse understands the  invisible cues of the leg and seat to the point that the cues are so subtle as to not be seen.  The hand holding the reins moves no more than a fraction of an inch when offering a new direction and stopping is all body and seat dependent.  It is very easy to have a horse rearing and flipping over in a bridle bit that is attached to the wrong hands!  A beautiful hand made spade bit or a double bridle on a well educated horse in the hands of a real horseman (that means us girls too!) takes my breath away.  

You are right on in fitting your snaffle bit.  I had a nice conversation with Ray about how the snaffle should fit in a horses mouth.  The wrinkles in the corners of the mouth is softness that is lost!  There is no release of the pressure but a constant pull from the headstall causing dullness.  I want my horses light as a feather in my hands.  I hang the snaffle so it rests comfortably at the corner of the mouth.  There may be some youngsters that I will lower the snaffle and allow the horse to "carry" the bit more, but this is a short lived process.

I'm sure you are very careful when putting the bridle on your App so this is more for the other folks that may read this answer.  On my webpage is a photo of Ricky Quinn bridling a horse.  This is just exactly how the whole process should look.   Your  hand should cradle the bit in such a way as to have your fingers protect the teeth and when the horse opens his mouth you simply lift the bit into place using the crown piece of the bridle that is in your right hand.  No banging on the teeth with the bit, no head throwing.  If you can bridle and saddle with quality it influences the whole ride!  

I am so proud of you and your attitude toward you horses.  Giving your horses skills is a life insurance policy for them.  i think the same way Siski.  If something were to happen to me and I was no longer able to keep my horses, I would want loving people lining up to take them and offer them a real home.  I would never want any of my horses to have to suffer and endure some of the things that humans do to them.  This is the reason I am so against random breeding.  I would like to see so few  horses that there are none to fill the slaughter yards with.  Bless You!  

I like a simple "D" ring or eggbutt snaffle.  I don't want any funny metal that makes my horse slobber, how uncomfortable for them!  The whole moist mouth equals a soft mouth is so much bunk.  Soft hands equals a soft mouth, good releases, good timing and feel equals a soft HORSE!  I have to giggle at some of the silly stuff that is out there.  Jeremiah Watt makes a very nice snaffle bit at a very good price.  Go to www.Laurelmountainfarms click on the favorites page and go to Houlihan horse gear, this is Mary Brannaman's site.  He found it necessary to help people find good gear and so developed this site.  I've used it a lot...My weakness is great gear...sigh!  My poor checkbook!

Love hearing from you and about your progress!  Have a wonderful New year!

Smiles!  Denise

Hi Siski!

How are the ribs and how is your App?  I noticed you have not read the answer yet.  I know it took me some extra time to get back to you, Christmas and all!  I'm hoping all is well with you and no new accidents or injuries!!!  I know your are healing, so please take it slow and get better!  I don't know about you, but I want to be riding until I'm 90!  Longer if I'm lucky!  My friend rode until she was 82!  I want to beat her record!  So, protect your health, be patient and you will be back in the saddle in no time!

Happy New Year!  Denise

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Denise,
It's official, I am addicted. My mustang stuck his head out of the barn and very plainly asked to go out. So I dug out a very light saddle and padded him up and put one extra pad for me to sit on ,on top of the saddle, a closed cell foam tacky thing. I would never suggest this to anyone else, my guy is 32 yrs old and I trust him to the ends of the earth. with the arab and appy watching I had my husband lift me on despite his objections and I rode for about 10 min when I had to duck for a branch and the effort sucked my breath away. :) < big grin. as I am getting helped down I was thinking that went pretty well! my arab stuck her head out and I actually thought about it!! Oh my goodness!! If I fell off I could puncture a lung, that was a sobering thought! I am a horse nut..I used to say I was just another hair on their back that fell off. *giggling* oh well-cost me an extra day in bed. I met a man last year who was 90 that had 3 young horses and roped daily!! Yes, I want that to be me, not roping ,just riding.
thank you for the information on the bits and I will surf over to look at them. It is confusing with all the gear they make now a days.  I was watching my walter zettl tapes and learned a ton. I blame the tapes for wanting to ride!  I played with the invisible lines today and we had some break down in communication. this not raising my arms is a BLESSING! I so overdo everything and had no clue. they respond to even more subtle movements than I imagined. that is what HE taught me today.

I groan with you about the gear, I have a weakness for quality gear,most of it is out of my reach so I started to make some of mine. my bosal and hangers, reins, ropes, catch ropes that hang on the fence. I even tried my hand at a woven breast collar and cinch.  I make rugs so it was not to difficult to figure out. it works great by the way. Have a happy new year. I have 4 days off work and will be out in the barn 24/7 seeing what I can put to use that I learned from you and walter. :) another cheeky grin. yes, ground work, I promise.
Siski aki

Answer
Siski, I call that a mental health moment!  It is SO healing just to be in the company of horses.  I had shoulder reconstruction surgery last march.  One week after surgery, in a sling, my daughter helped me sneak out on a quick ride...magnificent!  So, I know the "call of the Barn!"  

If you REALLY want to groan about gear, check out the "Traditional Cowboy Arts"  you will see saddles, bridles, bits, silver made by the best artists in the nation.  Every last thing is a gem.  I know there is a TCA museum in Fort Worth, Texas.  Lots of things to drool over.  

You would enjoy talking to Sara Hagel or check out mecates.com  She braids mecate's and they are beautiful.  Little works of art.  I just bought a mohair mecate and I love it.  Good gear makes me happy every time I touch it!
Nice to meet another gear hound!  You can find wonderful things just about anywhere.  I found two sterling bridle conchos at an antique sale for next to nothing as well as silver Jeremiah Watt spurs!  You just have to know what to look for and it is out there, and if your lucky, for pennies!

SOOOOO, GROUNDWORK, rest, watch your DVD's and heal.  I know it is hard to wait, but it will be worth it in the long run.  Happy, Happy New year!

Smiles, Denise