trotting problem (PEOPLE PROBLEM)

Question
QUESTION: I have a 5 yr old Appy that has been giving trouble going into a trot.  I bought him last summer and he gave me problems with moving forward, I worked with a trainer & him over the winter and had him trotting and loping just fine. Then he started giving me problems moving forward in a trot again.  When asked with all four cues, he tends to walk sides way into the center of the arena turning his head far to the outside of the arena.  Even with getting his head turned correctly he still side steps into the center.  When my trainer or a longer legged person rides him they can get him trotting with a bit of work.  We have come to the conclusion that because I have very short legs the horse doesn't seem to respond as well.  Like where my legs reach may be a dead spot and he won't respond.  Any suggestions I like this horse but he's no fun if I can't get him to trot.  Is there a way to teach him to move out only on voice or seat position?  Help - I am determined to get through this but need help.

ANSWER: Hi Pat, this is not a trotting problem.  This sounds like a respect issue.  the horse has learned that if he turns his head and resist you, he will not have to trot.  This is no difference than if you were to try and lounge him or round pen him and he comes to you and sticks his head close to you and will not move out.

I use the words walk trot and canter, I also use a click to encourage movement, I click when I want a trot and kiss when I want a canter.  I this all the time......this is key, all the time, my horse can me click or kiss in pasture and he will trot or run.  Horse like routine, they like to know what to expect.  So if you click when you what her to trot when you lounge her, when you round pen her and when you ride him, he will learn to trot when he hears you click.  NO EXCEPTIONS.  I hear people click all the time for everything and think it is a cue, what they do is desensitize the horse to the cue and now the horse ignores the click and it means nothing, just like pulling and messing with the reins all the time, the horse learns to ignore them, just like telling the horse to do something and then not making him do it, soon he ignores you.

I answered this question, but you failed to provide the information I requested.  So this tells me that you don't follow through very well which is why your horse is testing you and winning.  This is not a horse problem, as with most problems, this is a people problem.

Rick

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I use the same cues when I lunge him as well as ride him.  I first hold my reins forward, then kiss, then lean foward a bit and squeeze my legs, then if no response I roll my heals up his side (as if I had spurs on - my trainer does wear them and it works for her but I am not experienced with spurs).  I have also tried using a riding crop as the last cue if he doesn't move into a trot.  He will move forward at a walk but like I said he tends to move to the center and turn his head towards the outside.  I have been working with him at a walk to keep his head slightly turned to the inside and keeping him over to the fence by pushing my inside leg into him.  He will walk just fine around the arena but as soon as I give him any cue to trot he starts moving into the center.  As I mentioned before when a longer legged rider rides him even one that was an inexperienced rider, my horse would respond.  I wondered if by my trainer using spurs on him if he has come to realize I don't and is taking advantage of that or if he has become desensitized due to the spurs.  My trainer does seem to think that I just can't get my foot into him where he needs it to respond.  I do admit it is a challenge for me to reach him around my tack and get my foot deep into him.  I am going to try a close contact saddle, what do you think?

ANSWER: READ THE TOP OF THE BOX WHERE YOU TYPE YOU QUESTION AND YOU WILL SEE THAT I PLAINLY STATE I WILL REJECT YOUR QUESTION IF YOU DO NOT PROVIDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEN AFTER YOU FEEL SILLY, GO GIVE YOUR HORSE A HUG FOR MISSING ALL HIS REQUEST FOR HELP SO HE CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT HIM TO DO.  

I think you need a new trainer.  If a person needs spurs to get a horse to listen, they do not understand a horse and use cheats, like pain, big bits, spurs, crops and other things.  Go ahead and try a close saddle, spurs, crops and whatever you want to try and think the problems is.  I told you before that this is not a horse problem.  I will try and tell you again, it is not an equipment problem either, YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND A HORSE, YOU DON'T KNOW TO TALK TO YOUR HORSE, YOU CONFUSE YOUR HORSE, YOU ARE NOT MAKING IT CLEAR WHAT YOU WANT FROM THE HORSE, YOU KEEP TRYING TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR THE PROBLEM AND NOT ADMIT THE PROBLEM IS YOU, so you will not fix the problem.  The horse not trotting is a symptom and not the problem.  The horse knows you don't know, so he does not listen to you or respect.  I agree with him, so I think you have a smart horse.

I normally don't type in caps since it seems like I am yelling, but did not want to keep shifting key to cap YOU.

This is the second time you did not provide the information I requested so I assume you are young or just don't listen, so I an not going to waste my time with you.  

I will reject any future questions, so please ask other experts until you hear what you want.

Good Day!


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Sorry I did not see the statement at the top, I was looking for the box to type in, but I feel I gave you a good idea what was going on and a brief background.  The screen after the entry asks my age and gender too.
WHAT IS YOUR AGE: 50
WHAT IS YOUR HORSE EXPERIENCE: had no formal training prior to this past winter.  he was rode by an inexperienced 14 yr old in the city parades which I believe he was led.  with no interest in horses his mother who showed horses decided to sell him.  when I looked at him with a knowledgeable horse person the owner rode him around the round pen, trotted, loped and then went out on the road and road him past a riding lawnmower, mail box, etc.  He seemed calm and I was interested in him.  I had another horse friend look at him and I rode him myself several times prior to buying him.  I then started working with him to teach him how to lope properly, turn, change leads, side step, etc.  He wouldn't go forward at first because he didn't understand what I was asking, but after several weeks of working with him he was doing great.  He had some finish work to be done and I hired a trainer to help with that since I was not a trainer and was still learning myself (have been taking lessons for 2 yrs now).  Everything was fine until after this trainer (who yes seems to use spurs) started working with him, then he started giving me trouble.  This same trainer was also putting some work into our other horse to and he now is having a crow hopping thing going on.  So I have taken your advise and fired the trainer and my husband and I are going back to square one with both our horses in the round pen and will move forward as we get a good response out of each step.  I have already seen my horse wanting to please me with bringing him back into the round pen.  Don't get me wrong, I listen and try to be as intune to my horse.  Keep in mind that I as well has he are both learning at the same time.  He is a forgiving horse so I am sure we will do fine, we just needed to move back a few steps and re-establish the trust and respect we had prior and to start with the basics again.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO FIX THE PROBLEM: Getting control of his head by keeping his head tipped to the inside and pushing my inside leg into him to keep him from moving into the center.  I stay consistant with my cues as noted before.  When I finally get him to do as asked, I reward him by giving him his reins and trotting around the arena few times
IS HORSE KEPT ALONE WITH OTHER HORSES:we have two geldings and an older mare which all stay together, this one being a gelding
IS YOUR HORSE IN A STALL OR PASTURE:we pasture during the day and stall at nigh during the winter, but as soon as the weather stays above 40 degrees they stay out 24/7

Answer
For some reason I got this twice, so I have to respond or get nasty gram from site.

Another key thing about horse that I did not get into is Pressure and
Release.  You have to understand that everything you do to a horse is pressure.  Release is doing nothing.  Release is the key, when you stop doing something, the learns that whatever he was doing when you stop is the right answer.  So if you ask your horse to move and he puts his butt to you and you stop or move away, you just told your horse that if you put your butt to me I will stop.  If you chase a and he runs and you stop chasing, the horse learns in order to get release of you and your pressure, he must run away.  NO, don't keep chasing him, don't ever start chasing him.

I see this at the wash rack all the time.  A person tries to wash horses face, the horse rears, striks or spins away, and usually with women, they say Awwwww poor baby, he does not like that, so they stop.  So they just taught the horse in order to get the water to stop being put on their face, they have to rear and spin the butt.

Same thing with trailer loading, a horse rears or pulls or runs or tries to kick and the person stops trying to load the horse.  You just told the horse if I rear and kick and run I can get my owner to stop pressure.

IF you ask your horse to go forward and the horse goes sideways, puts his head over the fence, spins, and resist you in and you stop asking for the forward, you just told your horse if he acts like that you will stop.  You only stop pressure when you get the right answer.  Then the horse gets a fair deal.  You have to be consistent, if you change the rules and get in a hurry and let your horse get way with something JUST ONCE, the horse is confused and thinks there are two right answers, so he will try them both and will never learn the real right answer.  This will casue frustration and confusion and the horse will start acting out in other ways since YOU do not make it clear what you want and what the right answer is.  It always come back to YOU!

hope this helps,  :)

Rick