Risks of sedation?

Question
QUESTION: Hi,

This is probably a really stupid question and very short notice, so I know I might not even get a reply in time.

Our pet rat is going to be examined under sedation tomorrow and I'm a bit paranoid about it.
He has had blood in his urine for a while now and a 3 week course of Baytril which didn't improve it at all. On some days he pees outside of the cage, he used to scentmark a bit but never like that. In addition to this he seems to drink less which makes me think he might be trying to avoid peeing because it's painful due to an infection. (It's a bit difficult to tell that it's less for sure because it used to be two rats drinking and now it's one.
The vet said that further treatment might be unnecessary because he seems in good health otherwise. As our other rat died recently I chose to rather make sure he gets treatment before he possible deteriorates but I'm worried that I'm putting him at risk for no good reason.
They plan to sedate him to take a urine sample and I think do some ultrasounds.
Do you think I'm making the right decision or would you recommend a better way to deal with it?

ANSWER:



Has the vet been able to palpate his kidneys to feel the size and shape of them?  Is your rqat losing weight?



Baytril isnt always the best drug to use for urinary tract infection but I see lately that in the UK, the vets there have a one track mind and give baytril for everything, which is not really good.

He should be on something else such as Trimethoprim-sulfa or clavamox.
I would try this for a few days to be honest before subjecting him to sedation and testing that is expensive AND PAINFUL.The rule of thumb is if the rat isnt improving within 3 days the medication is not going to work or it would have.  Using the baytril for three weeks was too long. If he wasnt clearing up in a few days it was obvious that the bacteria was not sensitive to baytril and to move on.  Its better to try a few drugs first when dealing with rats rather than subjecting them to risky or painful testing that can only further their stress.  I am all for testing, dont get me wrong, but what I see here is a rat that was given only one type of antibiotic for way too long with no change and nothing else was given.  It may not even be an infection and could be something else, such as crystals, stones or other....but infection often goes hand in hand with these problems too.

If this were my rat, I would try another antibiotic like what I suggested above and if after three or four days he still had blood in his urine, I would go ahead with the testing.


How old is your rat?

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: He's about a year and a half. We bought him in a big pet shop chain (which I can't call a mistake becaue I love him to bits) so we don't know what his "family's" life expectancy is like. As the other rat we had wasn't from the same litter it's no indication either.

I actually knew what you wrote about Baytril. Two vets told me that they actually treat rats with Baytril as the only antibiotic which didn't match what I had read online about the treatment of different illnesses in rats. The emergency vet we rushed the other rat to was dead bound on diagnosing Mycoplasmosis despite the lack of any typical symptoms (no respitory problems, very sudden onset etc.).

The first vet we saw with Crunchy (the rat who's ill now) seemed to be fairly knowledgable and definitely positive about rats (keeping guinea pigs himself) and he said he couldn't feel anything that would hint at problems (he could feel that his bladder was full, so I guess he knew what he was doing). Crunchy actually put on a bit of weight while on baytril and he seems lively as ever. He seems to have less porphyrin around his eyes since the other rat died, too.
His overall health seemingly being fine is one of the main reasons why I don't want him to undergo this testing if it's not strictly necessary (couldn't care less about the money if I was sure it was the right thing).

To be fair on the vets they did say it might be something else and not an infection, he DID test positive for a considerably raised white blood cell count though.

I think I will have to just stand up for my little one, cancel tomorrow and suggest a different antibiotic as the better option. If they don't agree I will have to look for a vet with more expertise...

I would really appreciate if you had any tips about how to get him to drink more by the way.

ANSWER:
Hmmm.....An increase in the  production of white blood cells  usually means its to fight an infection.


Elevated WBC means infection, both bacterial and viral, and can also mean other things such as inflammation, leukemia,even arthritis can cause elevated WBC.  That just sounds strange they would say it wasnt infection yet give baytril? What was the baytril for if not for an infection?

As I said, my semi professional opinion would be to try the antibiotics that are used to kill of the most common bacteria that usually cause urinary tract infection and if after a few days there is no change, testing would make more sense.  

Also,I hate so much to take away from any vet, but its not real hard to palpate the bladder and see if its full or spent.

The other rat that passed away, what were his symptoms of illness that made them think it was myco related?

There is one mistake many rat owners make and that is to refer to respiratory infections as mycoplasmosis.  Although rats are born with this bacteria, it is one of the major causes of respiratory infection in rats, but it can also cause otitis media (ear infection) that causes head tilt and spinning or circling when they walk etc... and it can also be responsible for uterine infection with intact females, so myco is out there and is really really pesky indeed.  The problem with the lungs is that it can leave scarring and blistering after several attacks that were not properly treated, which means not given the proper meds for the proper amount of time which is usually 30 days and some experts now suggest up to 6 weeks and if there is a second relapse, it is suggested to give the rat baytril for life, or another antibiotic that kills an organism that has no cell wall, like myco, which limits the choices greatly. This explains why so many vets reach for the baytril, thinking the only real problem rats have is from the mycoplasma bacterium which, sadly, is not always true.  Myco can bring on secondary infections that just dont stand up and salute baytril and so the rat remains sick.  Streps are real big concern with rats, esp strep pneumonia, which can kill in less than 24 hours, its sometimes subclinical where there are little or no symptoms of the illness itself and its missed so often since it doesnt present itself with classic textbook symptoms.  Strep pneumonia *not the same strep pathogen that causes strep throat in humans* often doesnt even produce any type of congestion we expect to hear. Our rats are usually very listless and assume a hunched posture with their fur puffed out, body temp cool to cold, but they dont always have the coughing sounds we hear with myco which is why when we are told they have this, we are like "huh? your kidding?"  Sorry to babble on, I dont even know how I got on that subject....just asking what caused the other little rat to pass away I guess got me going.  

Anyhow, if you want for kicks, I can look for another vet just to give you a name or two to hang on to, absolutely no obligation at all to call them.  Just let me know where in the UK your located and I can take a peek and see what I can find.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Sorry, if my account was a bit confused. The first vet I saw with Crunchy tested for white blood cells and was pretty sure it was a UTI, the second one I saw when it hadn't cleared up after the course said it might not be (going on to say that UTI's are extremely rare in young male rats which I don't believe to be true, but maybe I'm wrong). That was why she didn't want to try another kind of antibiotics (which I suggested even then having read up on it a bit).

The thing about our other little one who passed away (Zizou) was that he just seemed a bit tired and less eager to come out of the cage but didn't show any other symptoms for 2 or 3 days. He still walked about (after some encouragement) without any obvious symptoms one day and 20 hours later he could barely move. He just seemed to lack any power to move. The vet was convinced that he "would have a head tilt and would be circling" so she diagnosed that the myco infection was primarily in the ear. He only crawled straight to the next hiding place at this point and didn't hold his head up anymore, there had been no sign of head tilt or anything earlier than that either. She got the impression she could push him over to one side easier than the other, that was all. She could hear a slight sound in his lungs as well. The symptoms you describe for strep pneumonia make sense (the hunched posture definitely!) but I don't know if I want to know if a better vet could have saved him. He still took food and water when we saw the vet and for about 2 days after that (he couldn't grab his food anymore but we made sure he got as much babyfood as he would eat). Then he stopped eating completely and died within maybe 18 hours.
The steroids he got made it seem like a slight improvement after seeing the vet but the day he died we would have probably had him put to sleep anyway because we didn't want him to suffer longer than there was hope.

It's a very sad thought that he could still be alive if he had gotten a more suitable antibiotic. He was a very lovely rat and I miss him a lot. I will never know what exactly happened so I shouldn't think about it. We took him to the vet within an hour of realizing he was really ill and we took good care of him for as long as he had left. I will never forget how he crawled for comfort towards my hand on the vet's examination table, as weak as he was. It showed so much trust in that I would provide safety for him. I will never forget how he felt all limp on my hand when I carefully took him out of the cage to clean it. I could feel his heart beat. Then he died and I just wasn't sure that he was dead, I partly probably just didn't want to believe it.
Sorry I wrote so much about it. It's hard to find someone who can understand what I felt about it all. Too many people can't see that a rat is just as lovable as a cat or dog.

I will do my best to make sure Crunchy will always get the best treatment I can find.
We live in Edinburgh, if you knew anyone here it would really be brilliant.

Answer
While I search for a vet I want you to know that if your rat had what I suspect, no vet in the world could have saved him.  Its a tough tough infection to beat.   Take comfort in knowing that there was nothing that could have been done.   I am sorry if I made you think that he could have been saved had there been different treatment available.

I was talking about the rat with the UTI and how he would have no more blood in the urine if he had the right meds which somehow lead to the other little rat and got you confused or me confused at some point into suggesting he would have been better by now if he was on another med. This is about the rat in question, Crunchy, and his current possible UTI and to test or not to test.  Hopefully I am now on the right subject.


Here is what I have so far:

The Lawrie Veterinary Group
25 Griffiths Street
Falkirk
Central Scotland
FK1 5QY
01324 624361

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