Rat babies

Question
QUESTION: Sandra,

I wrote to you recently about 2 pregnant mother we had bought from a pet shop who went on to have 10 babies between them. Thank you so much for your replies, they've really helped us out a lot, and we appreciate your advice and quick responses.

Seeing as we're still debating whether to keep the entire litter and have yet to try and sex the babies (although we're going to attempt that tonight), we were wondering if it is possible to keep a cage of bucks and does in close proximity? If we decide to keep the litter, we were looking into purchasing a large Midwest Critter Nation cage, and separate the large into 2 levels - one for bucks and one for does. Would the rats respond ok to this? Would the bucks fight if they can smell the females, would it be advisable to have the males neutered?

As always, your advice is much appreciated!

ANSWER: Dont ask HOW but this letter was in my spam along with many other allexpert messages.  EEK! I am so sorry for the delay

How are the babies:)?

Yes you can keep the boys in the same room, even near each other, but put cardboard between the cage no matter the sex, just to keep paws and tails to themselves. I have a ferret nation (I bought it before they came out with the critter nation!!!) so I know the set up.  Be sure they cannot reach up at each other or tails cant drop in, and babies climb so they may climb up to the top to smell who is above them, but there should be no problem since they will be raised together.

This cage is said to hold 16 rats total so that means 8 on bottom, 8 on top, although I think thats pushing it a bit. I usually dont like more than 4 males in one cage together to be honest. How many males do you have?

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Sandra,

We have 4 male babies, 6 female babies, and 2 mums, so a total of 12 rats would be in the Critter Nation. Would that be ok for them? I've also read on the Internet that by having the males neutered all of the rats would be able to live together (after waiting about 10 days after the boys' operation), is this right?

We're actually having trouble with the mums as well. Our black and white rat Rosie is still very timid and won't allow anyone to touch her, and our champagne rat Poppy is still so aggressive that we're getting frightened to be in the pen with her. If we put our hand in or near the cage she bites (hard!), and sometimes bites without provocation causing blood to be spilled. Her behavior really is very unpredictable. But despite this we do love our little critters and want them to be happy and healthy. They really appreciate having time to themselves in the evenings to run around in their cardboard enclosure and both does love climbing over people and running up and down arms, legs and shoulders. Could it be that they're feeling the squeeze in the size cage we have and need to be moved to a bigger one? Or could it still be protectiveness over the babies? Is there anything we can do to help them overcome their fears and aggression? We've tried a lot of things but nothing seems to work for longer than a day or two. Our biggest fear is that if we decide to keep all 10 babies they might become timid and aggressive too.

Thanks you so much for replying, your answers really are making a huge difference and assisting us so much.

Sarah



ANSWER: The aggression and being timid are from not being socialized, but you can overcome both, I promise you this.   I think I told you about Holly, and if I didnt, read my website and the page on how to train biters and also shy rats too.  One thing is, dont let her know your scared of her.  I take it you sit in the play pen when taking turns with the rats coming out?  Try your very best not to show your scared of the aggressive rat.  You will need to make some one on one time with these two ladies and dont let anything interfere when your doing it. Chcek out my page, see what you think.

As for the boys, yes once neutered they can live wth the girls. Be sure you use a vet that is VERY experienced with rats.  Remember there are certified avian/exotic vets and there are vets that see rats, say they are exotics, but are not, and only have what is called a "special interest" in exotics. These vets have no formal training in exotics and have not taken the state board exams in order to earn this title.  For help locating a good vet, let me know you some names of vets.




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: We had a suspicion that they were probably not socialised, and added to that was the stress of being pregnant as well, so we're starting from a disadvantage I suppose! We do sit in the pen with them for roughly 3 hours per evening and for the last 2 weeks they've been ok (although slightly timid), but quite willing to run up arms and sit on shoulders. In the last 3 days however Poppy has been biting very frequently and viciously. My hands are covered in painful bloody bites. The biting is usually caused by something in the pen being moved (at which point she lunges and bites as though she's protecting her territory - the same as she does if anyone puts their hand inside the cage) but mostly its completely unprovoked. Last night for example Poppy marched over, jumped onto my lap and took a large chunk out of my thumb for no reason. We've been following your advice from your website but because they are un-socialised and we haven't been able to pick them up to handle them yet its difficult for us to put them back in the cage as "punishment" when they do bite.

Also last night we discovered both mums stealing each other's babies and placing them with their own babies and have separated the litters into 2 cages which seems to have settled the mums. For once there is peace and quiet in the litters and Poppy seems a little less highly-strung. Should we have one-on-one time with the mums individually or both together?

As for the vet, because we live in the UK it might be difficult for you to recommend one, but the vet we've been seeing for the last year and who knew our previous rats very well is a rat expert and has always gone out of his way to care for our little furry babies.

We just hope that by dividing the litters into their own separate cages and allowing mums to have some space rather than being cramped in the cage together they might both start adjusting. Hopefully this will not effect our intention of keeping all the rats together when they are a little older!!

Answer
I think you have done well by putting the mothers and their babies in their own cages.  Often there is jealously and they will steal the others pups.  I think you should do one on one with the adult rats. It may be alot easier. You can use welding gloves or rose pruning gloves when  you need to pick them up but only during that time.....we must save your hands. OUCH! I know how badly rat bites can hurt. I have nerve damage in my right hand from some very unhappy and unfriendly lab rats. They had every right to bite me, they were cut, scarred, probed and pinched for a year of their life with no comforting or cuddling so they did not know what to think of me.  It took forever and a day and they still only trusted me to a degree...never enough to want to be held and cuddled, but enough to sit on my knee and enjoy a treat.  Only one time did I fail at trust training and that was with one of the largest lab rats. Twizzler was his name. He was a large 2.5 pound buck who had a large scar on his back, I assumed from being a practice animal for surgery for vet students. Poor thing.  He tried to attack the other three lab rats and had them cornered, lunging at them again and again till blood started to splatter all over. I took him out, put him in a temp cage and he lived alone the rest of his life in a cage across the room. he would slam his body into the cage if he smelled another rat near his cage. He was very aggressive. I would reach in and feed him and even change his litter but left him in there at all times. He never came after me but if I dare tried to pet him, he would coil back and growl. I wanted so much to love him and hold him and tell him it was ok but he wanted nothing from me but to be left alone.
I found him dead one day, teeth clenched around the cage bars. I cried that he died alone never knowing that he was free to be a pet and to be loved.  Necropsy showed he had a bad heart infection of the valves. That is what killed him.  He never showed any signs of illness, only aggression.  I still cry for him and that was six years ago or maybe more.

So that is why I pity aggressive rats. They are born shy and timid, never to be mean. Never to charge and run and chase us to bite us. It is humans that make them mean due to ill treatment or simply lack of interaction.   I do think the new girls will learn you mean well and will come around soon enough. Once the pups are getting along on their own, things will be better. I have this feeling.

As for your vet, by all means, if he is good with rats, thats great. I would keep him because I do have a data base of all registered avian and exotic specialists in the entire world. There are no more than 115 in the entire world with the majority of them coming from the US. There are only 13 vets in the UK that are registered with the Association of exotic mammal Vets, and most of them are NOT certified exotic vets but have a professional interest in them, which is not the same as being certified.  However that doesnt mean they are not good with rats, but the rat experts in the UK are few, if any.    One of them that comes to mind is  Dr. William Lewis from
The Wylie Veterinary Centre located in Upminster Essex and another is Ms. Nathalie Wissink at Scott Veterinary Clinic in Bedford Bedfordshire England.

 When anyone in the UK has a vet that knows about rats I say keep him or her and tell all your rat friends too!  :)