baby mice sick?

Question
QUESTION: Hello,

My husband and I recently found 3 baby mice last Sunday. Just a couple days ago the first one died and all of the sudden and then the second one. I was devastated and so sad- really thought we were doing a good job. I really wanted them to live longer. We have been hand feeding them with a dropper with puppy formula in it but realized that their poo was runny, an orange color. Is that normal? is that what the 2 died from? are they dehydrated? "Henry"-who just opened his eyes yesterday,our last baby has been eating but it doesnt seem enough. We tried to give him soaked up dog food/ bread and some sunflower seeds but he seems to not to want it. Is he old enough to eat it yet?
He doesnt seem to be losing weight..  but we can't figure it out he doesnt have an appetite?

Also, he has been shaky while walking towards my hand, what does that mean?

Thanks,
Concerned Mouse Mommy

ANSWER: Hi Sophia,

The most important thing to understand when taking care of orphaned baby mice is that it is really, very hard to do.  Not just in caring for them either, but it can be very emotionally challenging, and sometimes the odds are really stacked against the little guys.  Pups are so fragile that just about anything could have gone wrong before you found them, including genetic problems that lead some moms to kick pups out of the nest to begin with - sometimes they just sense what it takes us humans several days to realize is wrong.  Then, when a good person like yourself finds them, sometimes it's a real battle upstream and they don't always make it - through absolutely NO fault of yours.  There's no way to be sure of what happened to the two little ones who passed on, but I am very sure they were lucky to have someone watching over them and loving them.

So, with that in mind, that you ARE doing a tremendously great job, let's see what we can do to improve little Henry's chances for success.

Any time a pup (a baby mouse) is switched from mom's milk to formula, it causes a little tummy upset and can result in diarrhea.  Discoloration of the stools could be a result of the sudden diet switch, but a dramatic or bloody change can be indicative of an intestinal problem or even illness.  I have a feeling the orange poos just looked orange because they were very watery, but I cannot say for sure without seeing it.  Is Henry having these watery, orange stools currently?  Because a lot of fluid is being lost through the poo, this can indeed cause dehydration, but I would be surprised if this is what hurt the first two pups.  It can make a pup lose weight (but, please remember, so can many other illnesses or disorders) and appear sickly, so it's definitely something to address if he is still experiencing this.  One thing you can try is to add lactated ringers solution, which you can hopefully find at your local pet shop, feed store, or veterinarian.  If you can't find any, Pedialyte is a good substitute.  This website explains how to give it:  http://www.rmca.org/Articles/orphans.htm

The weight loss may also just be a result of the formula switch - be sure and weigh Henry with a food scale, or anything that measures in grams, before each pooping and feeding so you can keep a quantitative log of his weight loss or gain.  Ideally you want to see a steady gain each day - once it starts going up it should not go down again.  Use some kind of cloth, rag, or something warm an cozy between him and the cold metal of a scale, though!  Pups can chill very quickly.

I'm not sure how old he is, but here's a chart showing the ages of house mice to give you kind of a guess:  http://jaxmice.jax.org/images/literature/pupsposter-large.jpg  The older a pup gets, the pickier they usually are about what position they want to feed in.  Try different methods, positions, and I've even had success dripping milk into the creases of my palm and letting a pup lick it up on their own (this requires some serious toweling off of the little guys afterwards!!  Always remember to dry off any milk dribbles or spills before putting them back in their home to nap).  When he stops feeding, rub his sides very gently, stroking from shoulder to bum with your forefinger and thumb, then try and offer him just a bit more.  When he's quite sure he's had enough, pet him again, this time in his home, all dried off and warm.  If you don't already have one under him, use a heating pad on its lowest "warm" setting beneath his enclosure to help him get to sleep and keep him cozy.

If he's on the older side - eyes just opened, exploring, and a full, happy coat of fur, he may be old enough to try solid foods, but not everyone catches on to them right away.  You've got it just right with the bread and dog food, though the seeds might be a bit of a challenge until he is a bit better at eating on his own.  You can also try cheerios, and perhaps scrambled eggs made with formula or water instead of milk (they have a ton of protein and are soft enough to eat easily).  Remember to remove perishable foods before they spoil so as not to upset his tummy, and keep something dry in there at all times so he can explore it at his own pace (such as the cheerios I mentioned, or even commercial mouse food or blocks).

The shakiness when he moves around could be weakness, or it could just be him trying to figure out how his legs work.  If he moved, wiggled, and crawled proficiently before, but now wobbles severely, I would consider something to be wrong.  Outside of a visit to a vet who works with mice, and doing anything you can for his diet, there isn't much to do about it, unfortunately.  You are giving him all the help in the world - it's mostly up to him now to fight his way to adulthood.  Consider each day a win and a step in the right direction!

I hope I have explained everything clearly and answered all your questions, but if you have anything else to ask me about please do not hesitate to write me a followup.  My thoughts are with little Henry, and I hope he is doing well tonight!  Good luck!

-Tam

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------


Henry   QUESTION: Thank you so much for responding back so quickly Tamarah!

Based on the chart that you provided, Henry was found around 3-4 days old (found him on Sunday, Oct. 1) and is also a agouti coat color. Today, he should be around 12 days old but instead he looks to be only 6 days old. He is relatively small for his age and I'm guessing because he isn't getting enough to eat,even though we feed him constantly. He started to chew on some sunflower seeds but it seems to be too hard for him. When feeding him, he tries to grab the dropper (which we let him) but it just seems to be a bit too messy to feed him that way. Plus, we don't want the formula to go up his nose, which happens sometimes. But don't worry, we have our qtip close by to wipe it away quickly. Last night, for less than  a min. he was drinking out from the dropper by himself. but soon quit. Is there a certain way we should try to place the dropper? High above, or keep it low to the ground?

His stools seem to be not as runny-not so watery looks a bit thicker but still soft.. sorry for the detail info. :x (based on yesterdays feedings)but still orange, they were harder and darker in the beginning. I forgot to mention in my first post that I did dilute some  water with the formula a couple of times thinking the babies were a bit dehydrated, since their stool was runny but have stopped since. I plan on going to get him som pedialyte after work today but is there one in particular I should get? So I do half/half? more formula than pedialyte?
 
Another question, he seems to be in a hunched over postion constanty, is it a sitting pose? should i be concerned?  

Sorry for asking you all these questions, but I want to do my best for Henry! :-)

Thank you so much for your help! It is GREATLY appreciated!
-Sophia

ANSWER: He's a beautiful boy!  He does look thin, though.  A good way to tell is to look at his tail - it should be fleshy and thick, but it looks like we can see his tail bones.  This could be from him not eating enough, but it could also be a sign that something is going wrong that is out of your control.  Unfortunately, "failure to thrive" sometimes happens and some mice do not put on weight or growth like they should.  This is typically genetic.  The best thing to do for now is to keep trying and hopefully he will pick up some weight!

Whichever way he is most eager to eat from the dropper is how you should hold it - each pup develops a preference as they grow up.  As long as he is not breathing it in, there is no wrong way to get the milk in his tummy.

It's great news that his stools are normalizing.  With the pedialyte, just the plain, normal version will do.  You only need to add a little - I would dilute the milk with it just like you would with water (until it hits a milky consistency, less like syrup and more like water).  You really don't have to add much, and expect the color of his poo to change a little bit as it continues to normalize.

Hunching, to be perfectly honest, is not a good sign.  Part of it is likely just him being a pup, and he doesn't have the mobility and posture of an adult just yet.  Hunching can also be a sign of feeling bad, though.  How is he moving around?  Is he still shaky?  You may want to try calling a vet that works with mice, or any other local mouse expert (you can try animal shelters, wildlife rehab centers, pet shops, and even mouse breeders) to see if someone can take a hands on look at him.

Don't worry, ask as many questions as you need to!  Hopefully Henry starts to feel perky soon and pack on some grams.  :)

-Tam

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Henry had a good night last night.

We've been feeding him a bit more formula to try to have him pack on the extra weight that he's missing. We got some pedialyte and added it into his formula, hopefully that will help him feeling better :)
He has been trying to eat sunflower seeds but I feel like it is still too hard for him to eat. Is there another alternate "nut" that you can reccommend? I can't think of any. We tried to give him bread, cooked rice, and dog food but it all seems to fail. We need to try cherrios too.  He sure does love the smell of the sunflower seeds (the inner seed in the shell)

I've realized that Henry is only "shaky" in the mornings and around lunch time, but when its time for his evening feedings he seems to be totally fine. I even let him run around for a bit on our rug so he can stretch out those legs of his... he's becoming very fast and squiggly, he's so cute.

I really appreciate your help! I just don't know who else to ask these things.

Thanks!
Sophia

Answer
You can try pumpkin seeds - they may be a little easier to gnaw into than sunflower seeds, but all seeds/nuts are going to be a little tough for him to get the hang of early on.  Another neat treat is millet sprays - you can find these in the bird section of your local pet shop.  Kitten kibble may also have a different smell and taste than dog food, just to add some options.  So glad he's running around - that is a terrific sign!  My fingers are crossed for the little guy!

-Tam