greenbroke appy

Question
QUESTION: hi,
this is the all to familiar horse nightmare. I bought a dead broke horse, which I never believe anyway, that was at best greenbroke. I rode him a number of times and looked at him over a 3 week period because I was struck by his beauty and natural movement. I knew I would retrain him anyway to go bitless and barefoot but I did not figure on some of the new drugs they have on the market for calming horses. he did not test positive. 5 days after he came home a raging beast replaced the placid appy I found. he began slamming anyone into gates and fences and would walk on you. after 7 months he has naturally returned to his placid self with sheer will a strong helmet on my head and natural horseman training.
I normally ride bareback and I am over 50, this was a necessity when I purchased him because of the saddle sores he had. we have progressed thru walk and trot transitions in the bosal with a huge amount of success. I bitted him within the last few weeks with a 21mm snaffle and he mouths it constantly. he does not run thru it nor ignore it. I
I have never taken him out of an extended trot yet as I wanted to make sure what holes were present in his training before we went faster. I hired a trainer to come out and ride him and put him thru his paces so I could watch to see if I wanted to spend more time with him or to give it up. during the time ,apprx one hour he was perfect.during the second hour the trainer leaned over and patted him several times very firmly and on the next go around he started to buck and rear in an ever increasing intensity. the guy finally got off and told me to sell him ,he was dangerous. he has never acted this way with me but I dont ride for more than hour ever,i was afraid to ride him then. after about a week deciding what to do I started him all over with halter breaking and built up each step to see if there was any resistance. none until we got to the lungeing. he does not intimidate me anymore nor does he strike out but he absolutely refuses to move. when I used to ask him to disengage his hindquarters he would move them over. now he looks at me, shakes his head up and down and criss crosses his fore to produce the same effect. I feel like this is on purpose but am trying to see what I might be doing different. I suppose this is several questions, isn't it? He is drop dead gorgeous black appy with natural collection, a real showman with a floating extended trot to die for. I recently read that when a horse stresses he will return to the behavior you spent months training out of him. that would be the bucking and rearing, and now I am not certain what I want to do. I am too old to bronc it out, and am having trouble letting go of this gorgeous boy. he is 10yrs old by the way, and later I found out recently gelded about 2 months before I bought him. he was broke about 90 days before hand. I reported the unethical horse trader. I would like your opinion as I have been using training videos from Leslie Desmond to help me along and Walter Zettl for my ground work.
siski aki

ANSWER: Hi Siski!

Boy, you are on a journey!  I couldn't think of better DVD's to watch than Walter Zettl!!!  Walter and Ray Hunt spend time together.  My dream is to be a fly on the wall when they are talking to each other about horses...WOW!  Leslie Desmond is also wonderful, so you are on the right track.  

I am so sorry that you bumped into some very dishonest people.  How troubling and sad for the horse and you.  I'm so glad that you are still trying with this horse.  You are a gift to be sure in his life.  Try and persevere a bit longer and we will get you some better help.  

Any chance you and your App could attend a clinic?  Leslie Desmond, Buck Brannaman, Ray Hunt, Ricky Quinn?  The trainer that got off your horse and told you to sell him makes me mad.  His timing, feel and horsemanship skills were off the mark, I'm sorry to say.  You know that Buck, Ricky, Ray, Walter or Leslie would NOT have had the same outcome.  Good horsemen can offer real help to horses and their owners.  I'm a bit emotional about this due to the overwhelming number of "trainers" that have no real horsemanship skills.  I see too many horses sent to slaughter and too many owners scared and hurt for no good reason.

Okay, I've got that off my chest, now onward and forward!  I'm going to be blunt here Siski...I want you to invest in a good saddle.  I grew up riding bareback and it was great, now I'm 47 and I need to stay in good health because I want to ride for the rest of my life.  Don't take unnecessary chances, especially on a green horse.  Moreover, you need to be able to support your horse if things get a little sideways!  It really scares your horse to have you come off!  Do everything you need to do to stay safe and give your HORSE confidence, be secure!  Go to my website and look at the favorites page.  I have some great saddle makers that will help you find a quality saddle.  E-mail me again and we can have a saddle discussion and find just the right thing for you and your horse.

I'm glad you are using a snaffle bit again.  Any piece of equipment in the wrong hands can be harsh and hurtful.  A cotton rope and a feather can cause harm if used in a thoughtless and careless manner.  The snaffle bit allows you to ride and communicate with precision.  You can be more refined with your aides and more particular with your horse.  It is the hand that causes pain, not the bit.

I would go back to the beginning with your App.  I would re-start him like a colt.   Back to the round pen, basic ground work because now you are going to have to fix those human caused braces.  The horse has not been offered much in the way of quality.  The firm "pats" were not comforting to the horse.  The bucking and rearing is a result of the horses feet being stuck and not free.  Going back and doing basic front quarter and hind quarters with quality being VERY aware of the placement of each foot is a must.  The horse too has had to become disrespectful in order to save himself.  This is evident in his lack of willingness to move forward, shaking his head and striking.  The criss-crossing is just due to a false bend with too much drift in the feet.  Your App must go FORWARD.  Too much drift is scary!  It is so easy to tip over!  So, FORWARD, please!  

You are now in that difficult place of having to do more so you can go back to doing less with your horse.  Your timing will have to be spot on to correct the mistakes that this horse has had to live with.  You can't treat him with kid gloves though.  If you want him to go forward, get it done.  Do what it takes to get the change, and then quit!  DO NOT PICK on this horse!  He has had enough.  If you ask for forward and don't get it, come in with the tail end of your lead and nip him.  Get the change and then get soft.  You will have to be very black and white, very consistent, and very clear.  

Also, no more lunging.  Just use the round pen.  Hook him on send him out, do lots of transitions, but not with the  lunge line.  The line at this stage creates the drift and the false bend that is causing a lot of the trouble for this horse.

Horses are smart.  Yours is only doing what he thinks he needs to do to survive.  Stress will not cause him to revert to some prior state of bad manners.  If the training NOW is good and meaningful to the horse and you can support the horse when trouble comes up there will be no need for the horse to think he has to save himself.  Remember, a horse that bucks is troubled.  If you can, get your hands on him and RUB HIM, if it has not gone too far, you can rub the buck away! Bend him, get to the feet and RUB, make it feel good to him.  Don't pat, rub, like his mother would do.  You never see horses pat each other for comfort and support!  

You have your work cut out for you here.  This horse will teach you SO much.  I think it would be best to find great quality help to get you through this rough spot.  Please don't give up.  If you could get to a clinic with Ray, Buck, Leslie, Ricky that would be wonderful.  Ricky will ride your horse for you and that would be just the ticket for your App.

Go slow.  Be patent.  Be safe.  This horse has had 10 years to  build braces it is going to take some time to get things right.  Ricky has colt startings in Arizona, Hunting Beach California, Hampstead Maryland this fall.  I'm hoping maybe one of these would be close to you.  Check Ray Hunt's website as well.  He may be close to you this fall.  Buck will be back on the road in '08 and his schedule is not yet posted.  I have links on my site to both Buck and Ray and you can "google" Leslie.  Don't settle for anything else but the best in horsemanship from now on!  Go see great people.  They travel the country for YOU, people like you and their horses.  

Keep me posted on your progress, Siski.  I'm here to help and listen.

Smiles, big ones!  Denise

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: thank you so much Denise for the wisdom and validation. I truly did not want to give up on him, yet everyone around me is saying so. I feel it in my heart that he and I can do this. I found a saddle today that should fit him, I used a wither tracing to eyeball it. when I got home with it he became way to tense to even try it on him. Now he is acting like he does not trust me anymore. I let him smell it and the rug, I mean blanket and just get used to it. In the end I just put it up on the rails for him to get used to. any tips on getting him saddled for the first time?

also your tip about how to move him was right on. I watched our 33  yr old mustang who runs the herd move the horses around today. he goes in quick and nips a little and out. when he did this I thought about your reply! I think it will work, I see how the mechanics of timing the release can work. I hope that makes sense. it sure did when I saw it. I am not sure my 'feel' is that good yet, but he usually lets me massage him-so I can do that if he ever offers to buck.I groom every day so that he gets used to being handled. I have one other question, he is horrible about slamming his foot down if he ever picks it up. I thought about putting a rope on his foot and slowly picking it up. is there a better way?
I will see about getting to a clinic, but it would not be until sometime later in the year. until then we are going to keep working at home every day. how long should we work on something? I usually try to keep training to about 30 minutes unless the objective has been met before hand. for recreation I take him out and handwalk him on the trails.
I pick a really small thing to learn each day, if it seems to confuse him we drop back to something he knows well and can do and then I finish up with lots of scratchs or maybe a walk in the pasture. It does sound like I will need to get a little more firm and more observant to be successful.


Answer
Hi Siski!  

I'm SO glad you are going to hang in  there with this horse.  It is the difficult horses that teach us so much, not the easy ones!  Just think of the hand you are going to be a year from now!

About saddling...Do tons, every day with your flag, tarp and slicker.  If you have never exposed a horse to these things here is how:  NEVER make the horse stand still when
you are exposing them to these things, never tie them.  When you approach with your flag this is just like saddling only easier to control and not as heavy.  Keep your lead rope over your arm if your horse feels the need to move away and to move his feet, let him, only keep him yielding his hindquarters around you in about a 10 meter circle.  If he bolts off, or becomes really troubled, put your flag in the neutral position (over your shoulder) yield his hind quarters to both the left and right until he relaxes and is finally able to offer to come still, then take your flag as he is walking around you, tip it to the left, by your elbow and then to the right and return to neutral.  Do this until you horse can stand still and face up on you as the flag goes to the left and right close to YOUR body.  DO not reach for your horse with the flag until he can stand comfortably while you are doing this.  Next,  approach your horse with the flag on his shoulder, again if he needs to move his feet, that's fine!  Just keep yield hind quarters.  If you need to stop and start over, that is fine too!  Take the flag and rub your horse on the shoulder keeping his feet moving, if he offers to stand, keep rubbing him and then ask him to move by bumping him with the flag.  You want you horse to learn the difference between a touch with the flag the means "it's okay you can stay"  and a touch (bump)that means "time to go."  Be clear, your horse can and will sort out the difference between the two.  After a while you will be able to stand at your horses shoulder and swing the flag up and over his back in the same motion that you use to saddle him.  Do this from the left and right side of his body.  Remember, if he needs to move off, allow it, just make it meaningful and respectful, yield his hinds and start over.  Your horse will figure out that he can walk and stand with the flag moving around and over his body and he will survive!  You want him to accept this activity and be comfortable and relaxed.  Now start the whole process over again with the tarp and then your slicker!  Do this every day for a week or until your horse can walk and stand and feel good with each of these things.

After you have gotten your horse comfortable with your flag, tarp and slicker, do the same thing with your saddle pad.  Rub the saddle pad on his body.  Be SMOOTH with every thing you are doing and do the same thing on both sides of your Apps body.  While standing on the left side of your horse, allow the saddle pad to touch and rub him on the right side making sure to touch him with it on the  elbow and in the girth area.  I hope he is not so tall that you can reach over his back and do this?  If he is tall and you are short lead him up next to a mounting block, log anything that gives you a little extra height.  Also, having him see you from above is VERY important!  I want you to be leading him by on the fence before you ever get on him.  

Now, about the saddle...If he were my horse, I would be spending a lot of time roping up his belly, flanks, front and hind feet and getting his comfortable and relaxed with my lass rope in the round pen.  This proves to the horse that he can survive in a bind, that having the saddle on will not hurt, scare or kill him.  After all that is what horses think is that the things that scare them can kill them!  It is up to us to PROVE to them that they will be fine and survive.  If you have never seen this style of rope work, here is a way to get your horse prepared  without using a 60' lass rope...use the tail end of your lead rope while your horse is haltered, I use a good rope halter with a 12' tree line lead, toss the tail end up and over his back.  This may bother him also.  Keep him on a 10mm circle with the proper inside bend and yielding HQ as needed, keep tossing the lead up and over his back and rear end, smoothly pull  the lead off and let it just plop on the ground.  Your other hand will be offering the direction you want your horse to be walking in. Do this to the left and right.  When he is comfortable, toss the rope over his back in the girth area, carefully reach under his body, make sure you are standing by his shoulder looking back toward his flank, reach under with your left hand allowing your hand and arm to rub his body as you are reaching, grab the tail end of the lead and bring it up as though you were putting the girth on, hold for a moment then release and start over.  If your horse needs to move while you are doing this, that is fine.  Hold and then release.  Keep this up until your horse is comfortable and relaxed and until the feel of the lead rope is not a cause for worry.  Now it is finally time for the saddle.  You can see the amount of preparation there is for the saddle.  I want you to always be searching for the quality in getting things done with your horse, not speed.

I also really like wade trees and how they fit horses.  Never skimp on a cheap saddle.  Good gear will save your life.  This is SO important I can not stress it enough.  Go to the Dry Fork Saddlery website, the link is on my site, look at the Lady Wade or Lady Pendleton saddles.  These are great saddles at a fair price.  I ride one and so do most of my friends.  I'm really a stinker when it comes to safety and good gear.  I will help you look for a good used saddle, I'll tell you where you can buy a new one, just get the stuff that will save your life and won't fall apart and scare your horse.  So many folks go through saddle after saddle hoping to find something cheap that fits and it never happens!  How the tree is made, the quality of materials, good heavy duty monnel stirrups are a must when you are riding horses that are troubled.  Okay, got that off my chest, whew!

After all your prep work, it is now time to saddle your horse.  I want you to saddle the same way you would put on your coat and hat.  Nice and smooth please!  Don't smash the saddle or plop it on your horse, swing it up from your hip so it just fits onto the horses back.  Again, if you are short the he is tall, climb up on a log or mounting block, just be fair with your horse and don't bang him in the elbows to get the saddle on.  I'm 5'3" tall and I ride a 16hh gelding and a 17'2hh mare!  Silly me!  I'm just really good at getting my horses to lead up to the large logs and mounting stairs I have all around my property!  Be smooth when you tighten the girth. Never back your horse into a tight cinch, they could flip over.  Tighten walk forward, tighten, walk forward and then tighten again.  Always put on the front cinch first and thin the back cinch, make sure the back cinch is resting against the belly with room for the horse to breath but not so loose that it is hanging under the body.  Make sure you are saddling for the first time in the round pen.  If your horse feels the need to buck and move and just get used to the feel of the saddle or if his body is really tight, let him move, buck and do what he feels he needs to do.  Saddle him slip the halter off and send him both ways of the pen at walk, trot and canter.  I know...lots going on here.  Saddle with quality, keep up this whole pattern from beginning to end and don't skip anything.  This will have your horse ready to start riding, with real quality.

Yikes...This is a long e-mail!  I want you out in the barn and not reading all day long, so I'll try and be quick about this next bit of info.

The reason he is slamming his foot down is that he feel insecure and scared.  If his foot is taken away from him he feel he cannot save himself and run from danger.  This will change slowly over time as he builds more trust.  Yes, a good cotton foot rope and teaching him to lead by both front feet would be great for him.  You will see big changes in him after you do all of the things we have just talked about.  Saddling is about the whole horse and building confidence and trust and knowing how to move and survive in a bind.  The foot rope will help with saddling and the saddling will help with the issues of picking up his feet.  It all works together.  

Finally, every moment you are with your horse you are training him.  Long walks in the woods are great things.   I don't "train" my horses I just do the things I need to do with them.  I may need for them to side pass to the mail box or to collect to trot through downed timber or over rough ground.  Do you see what I'm saying...?  Every moment we are together we are learning and refining behaviors and building skills.

You are on the right track with your horse.  Ray  says:  "Observe, compare, remember."  Your horse is your best teacher!  

If I have used terms or concepts that you do not understand, please let me know and I will clarify.  You are on the right path now!

Enjoy the Journey!  Smiles, Denise!

Hi Siski!  I hope you received this answer.  I noticed on my log that it has ot yet been read...It is Thanksgiving...any way, I hope you have seen this.  Let me know how things are going!  Happy Turkey Day!
Smiles, Denise