ground manners

Question
QUESTION: I have recently traded my mare for a gelding QH. He is supposed to be "quiet" for me. Well, I think he hasn't been trained like the folks said he was. He is 6 years old and has terrible ground manners. I cross tie him to groom him in the wash stall. He moves his hind quarters from one side to the other one.  He throws his head. He stomps. I'm afraid to get too close to his hind quarters because he will hold one back leg up at times as if he is thinking about kicking. He wants to chew on the rope, he wants to nibble on my butt if he can reach it. He seems aggitated when I brush along his spine with a soft brush. I am still a beginner, but I have groomed many horses and his manners are just atrocious!  He wears me out! Sometimes, he is almost perfect. He is very curious about everything and wants to put everything in his mouth.   Im afraid if I leave him tied for a long time to teach him patience in being tied, he will break the cross-ties and I board him and I don't want anyone mad at me.  He has never pulled on them like he would break them, but I am just afraid to leave him for too long. He loves attention and working in the round pen and loves to go ride on the trail.  He stands perfectly still when I put the saddle and bridle on him and mount him. His ground manners just need help. Shucks, I need help!  Thank you.

ANSWER: Hi Lisa!

Boarding barns are some of the most difficult places to keep horses.  It is such an un-natural environment and does not allow the horses to be horses.  Your gelding is screaming at you to give him more pasture time.  He is young, energetic, and stall bound.  He is agitated, impatient, and full of excess energy!  

I really, really hope he has access to a pasture and is getting turned out daily!!!  If not, you may want to consider finding a boarding barn that has turn out on a daily basis for your horse, and an hour or two will not do it.  All day and if possible 24 hours a day and being fed outside in the summer with a run-in shed would be the best!  This will really help him feel so much better.  Imagine for a minute that YOU were locked in your bathroom for 20 hours per day, fed twice a day, no TV, no exercise equipment, no one else to hug you, only cell walls to talk through and maybe, if you were lucky, a window to look out of and then only a small amount of very controlled exercise with the warden.  THIS is what it is like for your horse.  Horses are grazers, herd animals, their body hooves/legs do not function properly unless they are MOVING, and yet we STILL trap them in tiny cells barely large enough to turn around in.  It is NO wonder your horse is so touchy and sensitive.  I would be too!  I would be flipping back flips the second I was let out of the stall if I were a horse.  How would YOU feel!

So, TURN-OUT!  This is critical.  With proper turn-out your horse will be feeling better in just a day or two.  Then, Don't take him directly to the cross-ties and expect him to stand, and don't ever expect a horse to "learn" patience by being tied up, not gonna happen.  Take him FIRST and do all of your ground work.  This is NOT lunging.  The ground work I'm talking about is communication that speaks to the horse's mind by getting control of the feet, suppling the body and putting them to work mentally.  It is yielding hind quarters, getting the weight to balance over the hocks in order to step the front quarters around, backing circles, leading by on the fence, using your flag/tarp/slicker to build confidence and security with the unknown, exposure to the lass rope, hooking on in the round pen or small corral, this is your ground school.  After you have taken your horse and put both his mind and body to work, THEN take him back and groom him and prepare him for your mounted ride.  Do not tie him at all.  Make him part of the grooming and saddling process.  Don't expect the cross ties to do the work for you.  I have to say here Lisa, if just his dancing around tires you out, maybe horses are not the thing for you.  This is something you will really have to do some soul searching about.  Maybe long walks or a bicycle will be better choices for you and the level of attention and energy you have to give.  Horses are alive, thinking, feeling individuals.  They are not "things".  They change from day to day.  They are very intelligent on par with dolphins.  So, if you are not up to the challenge (you said he wears you out) of owning, caring for, and dealing with a  horse maybe it is time to move on.  If not, and you still want to be around horses, I'm thinking an older schoolmaster is a much better choice for you and your level of thought, involvement and activity.  A 6 year old is a young, vital horse that really wants a job and to go!  

You said your self that he stands for the saddle and loves to go out on the trail so it is activity that he craves just not all of the boring, slow, tedious stuff that goes on prior to it.  So, Go-GO-GO first!  Turn out is a priority!  Spend time grooming when he has had the chance to do something first so he will come to enjoy grooming.  Just knock the big chunks of crud off him, toss on your saddle and go!  With just these simple steps you will see huge changes in your horse the first day you try it!

Sounds to me like this horse is trying his best for you.  Do everything you can to help him.  He sounds like a pretty nice horse to me. Give me a shout and let me know how things are going!

Smiles, Denise

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Let me clarify. He is on pasture board with plenty of water and a nice run-in shed. He gets hay every day in the winter. He comes to me 99% of the time when I go get him at the fence. Sometimes he whinnys at me when I put him up as if he doesn't want to stop playing with me. I have groomed other horses that stand still while they are being groomed so I thought he had bad manners and would like to know how to correct that. He wears me out because I am 46 years old and don't like to have to make him behave so I can just brush him. My muscles get sore.  I will try and take him directly to the ring and work with him first like you said.  He does seem to enjoy that. I don't know what you mean by backing circles and stuff.  I only know the first few games of Parelli and have taught him to step away from pressure backwards from his chest and step away from pressure when I tap his hip and he can do this from each side. We play the friendly game too. I want to sell him and get me something a little olde like an older "schoolmaster" like you said would be perfect for me. He does have a neat personality and I do like him, but I would rather have something that has more maturity on him at my age. Thanks a bunch.

ANSWER: Hi Lisa!

I'm proud of you.  It can be a difficult to recognize when you are over-horsed.  I always tell folks that horses are about matching up personalities.  Much of my job is just that, matchmaker...you may hum if you wish!  

I WISH you hadn't stated your age...sigh...I just had a birthday and 46 looks pretty darn good to me.  I had shoulder surgery March of '07 and if I am good, I hope to avoid having another.  However, horses are a very physical sport.  I am in the worst shape of my life and I really feel it!  Injuries notwithstanding, staying in great physical shape is almost a must with horses.  It is sort of like skiing, you can get it done and not kill yourself if you are in so-so shape, but the better shape you are in, the better off you will be and the more you will enjoy your horse.  I'm hoping you are not in the middle of an injury or an illness.  Being fatigued is just the worst.  Horses, especially the right horse for you, can be so healing both physically and emotionally.  

If you look on my website, www.Laurelmountainfarms.com on the Training Q&A there is a resource list of DVD's to watch and books to read.  My teacher, Buck Brannaman, does the "Ground Work" DVD and book.  It is the best out there as far as illustrating the style of ground work I use.  Ray Hunt is also one of my teachers.  He also taught Pat Parelli and Pat still visits Ray's ranch in Texas every winter.  The "games" Parelli teaches are just broken down, polished up, and re-packaged ground work that Ray taught him.  This style of horsemanship and ground work was taught to Ray by Tom and Bill Dorrence.  So what you have learned comes from a good place, you just need to learn more about why it works, why it is so important to the horse and what is next in the progression.  You only have a bit of information and you need more.  It doesn't matter if you are riding an old schoolmaster or a 2 year old, knowing what makes a horse a horse and why they do what they do will always be important.  Even old schoolmasters may need for you to fill in for them one day, you have to know how to get the job done.  

There are so many horses for sale for next to nothing right now.  It is a great time to buy, but a very sad time for many horses facing a very uncertain future.  Your gelding sounds like a wonderful horse.  I think finding someone that more clearly fits his personality and level of activity is just the ticket for him.  Finding a schoolmaster that loves long quiet grooming sessions and laid back trail rides is just the ticket for you.  Don't be put off by age.  Spend time with any horse you are considering.  Visit several times at different times of the day.  Look for something that is on the back side of his/her career that is just as interested as you are in the laid back path.  I would be looking for a gelding that is at least 16+ years old.  Six is just too young and green.  

Good Luck in your search.  Take your time both in selling and in buying.  AND, and this is REALLY important...46 is just a kid!  You are not over the hill quite yet!  Thanks for clearing some thigs up.  Keep me posted!

Smiles, Denise



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Well, I went to see my horse yesterday. I took my husband and my 15 yr old son. He came right to me in the pasture. Walked up with me with no problems. Took him in the wash stall to groom him just a little. I did not cross tie him this time. My husband just held the lead rope. He was so much more calm. He wasn't pushy either. I took him outside to the ring to see what kind of mood he was in. He remembered everything I have been doing with him. He was calm. I lunged him briefly. He was perfect. I saddled him and bridled him and out we went to the ring. He walked fine, he jog/trotted fine. He likes his head up and I bump him down with pulling the reigns back and as soon as his head goes down I give him reign, but a few steps later, that head is back up. Do I just need to be  more consistent as in riding more than once a week or so? Of course, yes is the answer, but anything else?  Sometimes he will stretch his head out - is he trying to get "under the bit"? and what do I do then?

Until I do sell him, I think I am going to work with him as much as I can. I do like him. As green as I am, I am still pretty smart and can read and learn. I have never trained anything but dogs, but it does feel really good to have him remember the things I have worked on with him. I do feel a sense of accomplishment there.

My biggest thing is this...other than my other e-mails from the other day.......he is so mouthy.  He has to get his mouth on everything. He is constantly getting the lead rope in his mouth. He wants to nibble on me constantly. If I smack at him, he thinks we are playing a game and tries to nip at me and get away before I can smack him. When I groom him, he wants to turn and nip me. When I walk with him, he wants to nip at my arm. Never ears back or mean, but playful. I have heard some trainers say never in any circumstances should you allow any nibbling even if it is playful. So, how do I keep him from thinking I am playing with him?  How do I keep him from being headshy? I know he likes me and wants attention, but I don't want to feel teeth either!!  When I was walking with my helmet in my hand, he had had to be nibbling on it. I moved it away from and he just moved on to anything else within his reach. He actually bit my husband's shoe while he was standing with him. I love petting him around his head and mouth and he will put his head on my shoulder without nibbling.  I just never know when I'm going to feel those teeth. Thank you so much!!!

Answer
Hi Lisa!

I have a horse that I have been "selling" for the last 6 years!  She is such a challenge for me.  I rode her with Ray and he said she was going to be my "learning" horse.  She has taught me so much.  She is not a mare that will allow the human to be careless or to take advantage of her.  It has been SO difficult for me to find the balance between too much and not enough.  I have thought so many times of quitting, giving up, selling her, giving up on horses in general and getting goldfish, something I pretty sure I can handle...we all have those days.

Buck will tell us that one day you will feel like the best hand to ever swing a leg over a horse and the next day you will feel like the most sorry sack of dirt.  It is just all part of the process.  I can't tell you the number of times after some pretty difficult rides that I went off by myself and found a quiet place to just cry my eyes out. I kept thinking that I could never offer my horses anything of quality and all I could do was make mistakes.  Ray, bless him, set me straight again.  He didn't meet Tom Dorrence until he was in his 40's!  I about fell over.  I was in my very, very late 30's at the time and was just struggling with re-learning everything.  I had to throw out a lifetime of what I though was quality horsemanship for what I now know IS the real deal.  It was tough.  Far better to be learning from scratch and not having to deal with old baggage.  Ray told me a story about this pen of colts he was working with that when he went into the pen they were a bunch of snakes, but when Tom went into the pen they turned into little puppy dogs.  Tom had that feel, timing and balance that Ray was struggling to find.  Let me tell you that Ray found it.  It was not without hardship, hitting the ground, and I'm pretty sure some tears of frustration.  So, we have all been there.  We have all had to deal with a learning curve, self doubt, frustration, anger, defeat and in the end knowing that the horse is worth it and it is just something we can't let go of.  It is a journey that is so worth it.  You have already felt it, and it feels good for both you and your horse.

So, it may take you a lifetime to "sell" this horse.  In the mean time, I'm betting you turn into a pretty darn fine hand.  You have the desire.  Sometimes we just need to vent, throw in the towel just so we can bend over and pick it up again.  Horses and life it is all the same (Buck Brannaman).  

Keep going through all of the books and DVD's that are on my resource list.  It is good stuff.  I know the more we learn the more questions we have, and I'm here when you need me!  

Boys are mouthy!  Watch gelding at play in the pasture.  I run a mixed herd to I can watch the differences between gelding and mares.  It is predictable!  The girls will have non of the boys rough and tumble play, always biting each others cheeks, rearing, snapping.  It is what they do.  Don't allow your gelding to bait you into the game.  You are teacher, leader, boss mare.  You have to be above this silliness.  I am lead mare in my little herd.  It is the same feeling I had when my kids were in middle school and I walked into the room.  Everyone says "oops" mom is home, better shape up!  I rub and love on my horses, but it is respectful.  I don't play the gelding game, period.  Your guy is very intelligent and really needs to be kept busy.  Give him a little unsupervised time and he is TP-ing the neighbors house!  I know the type!

Your body can turn into many sharp corners that a playful gelding can run into. If you are walking around him and he reaches out to bite you, set things up for him to "run into" your elbow, follow this abrupt "accident" with a woops!  Poor boy, and a rub.  It will make him think twice about his sneak attack.  You really do have to have eyes everywhere with this type of horse.  Ray says you have to see the whole horse and one hair all at the same time.  It is just like being a mom.

Never hit your horse AFTER the bite happens.  It is too late and will trigger the gelding game and as it escalates, a war that you will never win.   If you are aware of what happens BEFORE what happens, happens, you can do something to change your geldings mind so the bite never shapes up.  For example:  as he is thinking about reaching around to bite me while I'm grooming, I may take that exact second to send him forward and then roll him over his hind quarters, this is another reason to not tie him when grooming.  You may have to take him to a different area to groom so you can get to the feet and make some changes and not be in cramped surroundings.  When people ask Ray about horses biting he will answer back "Well, what are you standing that close to his mouth for?"  There is a great point here.  If you are not in biting range, you can't get bitten!  You can teach your gelding to stand at the end of his lead and not approach you until you ask him to.  I'll teach my horses to back three different ways from a feel that says step back as I am stepping toward them, from my hand at the knot under their jaw and from sending a feel down the lead rope and having them back until I am on the very end of the lead.  If my horse is at the end of the lead as I am picking up my gear, helmet, brushes, my horse is waiting at the end of the lead.  When you ask him to step up to you, you can always send him back with a feel and even walk him to your mounting area or where ever from the end of your lead.  The other solution is asking you horse to stand like a gentlemen and not allowing him to drop his head, or turn his head in order to get his teeth on anything.  Look at all the horse had to do to shape up to chew on your husbands shoes!  Stop him BEFORE he gets to the shoes!  You will have to be very busy with this horse while your are setting your limits and boundaries.  Imagine how good it will feel to everyone when you get this solved!  But, you will really have to work at this for a while.  Depending on your feel and timing in a good consistent week, this should be solved.  And, then NEVER go back to the behavior or the thinking that got you here!

Be aware of what is shaping up to happen and change the behavior first.  If he tries to nibble, he runs into an elbow, if he tries to drop his head and chew on shoes, lift his head and put it where you want it and keep fixing until he stays, when walking with him, make him walk two or three feet away from you so he in not in nipping range, don't allow him to pick up the lead in his mouth, if he does use it as bridling practice, continue to lift one end of the lead until it lays were the bit would and then remove the lead from his mouth.  Make his idea your idea.  Get busy with his feet.  When you feel "playful" behavior starting to develop into nipping, BEFORE it gets that far, send him forward, roll him over his hinds, send him in the opposite direction, back him up, bring him forward, do full pass, trot/walk/halt transitions, roll him over his hinds again.  If he is busy doing all of this he will not have time to nip at you!  I would keep him working like this until you FEEL him say "enough" and he OFFERS to stand quiet.  For a while it my feel like you are diapering a herd of baby octopus, but that is what it will take to change his mind.  Pretty soon he will realize it is a lot nicer to just stand still and get groomed and not have to work so hard.  If every time he shaped up to nip at you, you set him to work in a very business like way, the nipping will stop and you will have a very handy and well schooled horse instead of bruised arms, chewed on shoes and gear!  Sounds like a good trade off to me!

Give this a try and let me know how things are going!  You are gonna' make it!

Smiles!  Denise

Fooey!  I forgot to answer the part of your question on soft feel, that is your horse raising is head up, rooting at the bit and not carring a soft feel or the proper bend and collection...I'll answer this tonight when I have more time.  I wanted to get this first and as it turned out, long answer off to you with out delay.  So, more on soft feel and collection tonight! I gotta go RIDE!!!  Denise