Biting/charging horse

Question
QUESTION: We have a 3 year old gelding whom we've raised since birth using NH methods all the way. My daughter did all the work with him and he is very bonded/respectful with her. He is a wonderful boy, amazingly soft, responsive, sweet. Except when it comes to men who ask him to move out of their space. He lunges as though he will bite them. He even charged my husband yesterday.

Part of the problem, I know, is that from the beginning my inexperienced, nervous husband always backed down when challenged. Which really wasn't often as he's rarely with the horses. Usually happens when he's out working the fences. But I suppose this taught our colt it was ok to be disrespectful to men (happens to my sons as well).

My daughter can't "work on this with him" as he NEVER acts this way to her. He's been a little grouchy with me at times so I've worked with him and he's more respectful to me now but other than that, no one else has ever worked with him. Honestly, he is a phenomenal horse in NH. Knows all the Parelli Games and is so light and responsive. My daughter can just lift a finger and he'll move off...He's had SO much NH training.

I'm wondering what is the best way to deal with this problem. Teach my husband/boys how to work with him? Do you think, if done correctly, this will give our colt the proper sense of respect he should have for all other males that come into his life? Will them doing things like the Parelli Games work or would round penning be better? And when they are out in that field working/playing, how would be the best way to handle this?

Would love and appreciate any advice.

Thanks ever so.

Barbie

ANSWER: Hi Barbie!

You really did answer your own question!  It is about R E S P E C T and leadership.  Your horse is just being a horse.  He has no respect for strangers coming into his pasture and sends them off.  Pretty clean and simple.  

Horses know when you know and they know when you don't know.  You prove your leadership and knowledge to a horse by being aware of what happens BEFORE what happens, happens!  If I were your husband or sons, I would only be out in the pasture with a flag or a halter with a lead rope.  Be watching your gelding, at the moment, the absolute second his attitude FEELS like it is going to change and become negative, send him away.  Do what it takes to move him out of your space.  As a matter of fact, I wouldn't allow him even close!  Your husband and sons are not horse folk, so you don't even have to go there.  Just make the message clear to your horse that his job is to stay out of the way.  Don't make it a contest, don't  make it a fight, when the non horse folk are in the pasture it is your job to keep them safe and to enforce the leadership and respect and let your horse know where he needs to be.  Pretty soon your horse will figure out that they are not a threat to him and they will enforce space requirements.  When you can't be in the pasture with them, show them how to properly use a flag, problem solved.

Same goes for you Barbie.  Don't allow the grouchy behavior, it will just escalate.  Your horse is telling you very clearly that he does not have that much respect for you either.  You seem to be more inclined to be with horses, so make it your job to change his mind about YOU!  Horses very quickly and clearly understand a lack of confidence, so have a clear plan when you are around him.  Be smooth, be direct, be willing to adjust to fit the situation.  This is how a leader IS around a horse.

Keep me posted on this grouchy, angry behavior.  Something here is missing.  Most horses, in general, are gentle and kind and I'm a little concerned about this.  Am I missing something in the story...???

Denise

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Appreciate your reply! Very helpful and solidified what I thought was the right answer but needed to make sure.

I had told my husband to make a 10 foot space around himself that Stryder was not allowed into. The second hubby lifts his hands (or shovel or whatever he has in his hands) this is when Stryder lunges in. It's like a spoiled kid. So long as you don't tell him what to do, he doesn't pitch a fit. I wonder if he bluffs a little, too as several times he certainly could have taken hubby down, or bit him, and, though acting like he was going to, didn't. Still, too dangerous to mess with. Fortunately, he always backs down with confronted but there's a part of me that is afraid maybe next time he won't. This is rare, I believe, especially for a well-trained gelding so I probably should try and put this from my mind. Stryder is very perceptive!

I so agree with you that something is missing. I keep saying this doesn't make sense. NH is supposed to change this behavior and he is the King of NH - imprinted at birth, worked with on a regular basis by a kind, even-tempered, knowledgeable daughter. He's had the perfect upbringing! His Mom and Aunts were a bit indulgent with him. And perhaps he could be faulted for being too much of a back-yard pony, more like a dog in many respects but he was never allowed to be disrespectful or pushy (although sometimes the very nature of being more dog than horse can be pushy in a 'sweet' way.) I know many NH trainers let their yearlings go out to pasture for a year or so with little training during this time to avoid this. Maybe that's where it comes from. He thinks the world revolves around him. My daughter has rarely had to 'discipline' him as he is a near angel for her. But I agree, it's weird. It doesn't fit with everything else about this horse. I'm just a little stumped but am going to diligently try your suggestions...but can I clarify...to move him off, of course start as light as possible but if he acts grouchy do I do what John Lyons suggests "you have 2 seconds to kill him"? (Sounds terrible but the point being you couldn't kill a horse in 3 seconds but you better darn well make him think you could.) Because when he acts like this, light and sweet definitely doesn't work. Strong and hard seems the better option. Just wondering, specifically, what "moving him off" would look like to you.

Thanks again for the help!!!!

ANSWER: Hi Barbie!

When your husband lifts his hands it is viewed by the horse as a challenge and not a respectful request to step back.  There has been a war created between horse and human and that is where the challenge is coming from.  Your husbands timing is off.  

I want you to think about this for a bit...NH is a misnomer.  Really, there is nothing "Natural" about it.  It is a term that has wrongly made it's way into popular culture and has nothing to do with good horsemanship, it has nothing to do with what Tom Dorrence, his brothers, and Ray Hunt were trying to do and teach.  I think it was Pat Parelli that coined the term.  Pat's teacher was also Ray Hunt and while I know that the basics of what Pat is trying to teach come from a good place, it had taken a really strange turn.  This is why your horse has not changed.  The NH stuff you have learned is focused on the HUMAN and NOT the HORSE.  It is good that you learned some of these concepts, but they were all formed for the understanding of the human, the horse is telling you VERY CLEARLY that you missed the boat as far as HE is concerned.  This is not uncommon, I hear and see this all the time.  You have to learn about the horsemanship, where it came from and why GOOD HORSEMANSHIP changes horses and not "games" meant for humans.  Horses don't play games.  Watch some of these horses while the "games" are being played, notice the pinned ears and wringing tails.  That should tell you, again clearly, that something is indeed missing.  This is why your NH horse is still charging your husband and others coming into HIS pasture.

Horses live in the moment.  They respond to the humans that are with them IN THE MOMENT!  Strong and hard will not work with your husband and your horse.  It will create a war that no one will win.  Horses respond to leadership in horse language.  If a horse thinks you are going to "kill him"  what do YOU think is going to happen????  Is he going to fight for his LIFE???  Is he going to trust and believe you????  Or is he going to save himself???  Tom Dorrence wrote that the primary need and focus of the horse is that of SELF PRESERVATION, and that is what the human needs to understand.  Your husband and horse have already started this war of self preservation.  Your horse challenges, your husband responds, it is like two boxers punching and counter punching.  No one is going to win.  

There are a couple of things you may want to take a closer look at...again, NH does NOT change the behavior of the horse.  What it is supposed to do is teach the human how a horse thinks, feels and reacts and HOW the HUMAN can be a leader the horse can trust.  Horses think, feel and react based on their need for self preservation.  This will change, in the moment, based on who and what he is around and what sort of leadership is being offered to him.  Do you see what I'm trying to say???  If I were in your pasture with your gelding, there would be very little I would have to do.  Horses KNOW when you KNOW and they KNOW when you don't KNOW!  I watch my own little band when a stranger wanders into the pasture with no horse knowledge.  The human is ignored.  If they are in the wrong place they will get stepped on or moved out of the way.  Humans tend to be very braced, they can't move their feet and they have terrible feel!!!  Humans are arrogant!  They think they should be GRANTED respect because they are human! Horses need to have proof that the human is a leader they can trust, if not a situation develops like the one your husband is currently in...potential disaster.  The horse is just being a horse and your husband is just being a human.  The change will have to come from your husband.  He will have to learn how to speak "horse" or stay out of the pasture when your gelding is loose.   

I have a feeling that if you look closely there is a general level of disrespect happening between the horse and all humans.  If your daughter is having to "discipline" him, then her timing is late and she has missed the behavior she is wanting to change.  This is what creates anger and resentment in the horse.  Once you have been bitten, kicked, run over, bucked off or run away with...IT IS OVER!!!!  You do NOT, let me say that AGAIN, YOU DO NOT discipline, punish, hit, slap, jerk a horse AFTER the fact!!!  It is over.  Let it go and RECOGNIZE the behavior BEFORE it happens!  This is how to be a leader the horse can respect and will trust and believe.  This is why Ray always said you have to be aware of what happens BEFORE what happens, happens!!!  If your horse challenges you (your husband) and you swat at him or what ever you have been doing to get him to leave you alone, this is just a war of punch, counter punch.  Is this becoming clearer yet?  A true horseman can FEEL they way a horse is approaching and KNOW how to change the behavior.  They can read a horse in a way that takes care of trouble before it becomes trouble.  Horses are not humans.  Humans believe in clear, irrefutable crime first and THEN a punishment that is going to stop the crime from happening again.  This is NOT how a horse thinks!!!

A horse operates on a feel.  A horse has a very clear way of telling the human that something bad is coming, the human just doesn't recognize it in time.  I'll bet that your gelding is sending signals a plenty and that he is telling your husband to leave HIS area.  Head up, neck arched,  ears pricked then pinned, tail swishing, a bold walk...ALL of these things are signs that something more is coming!  I would be taking care of the bad behavior when the horses eye lost its softness or when a ear started to pin.   Knowing how and when to stop negative behavior comes from building a relationship with a horse and knowing how they are feeling.  Barbie, you KNOW how your husband is feeling at any given point during the day.  You KNOW how your kids are feeling.  They don't have to use words, you just know.  This is what you have to develop with your horses.  This is what your husband will have to do to stay safe and stop this viscous cycle that is developing.  

Your family will have to learn good ground work and not games.  Get the "Ground Work" book by Buck Brannaman.  This will show you the elements of a classical ground school and the missing elements in "games".  

Once you know this classical approach, have your husband halter your gelding and take him to work with him on fences and in the pasture.  He will have to move Stryder's feet in order to do a job.  Your husband will have to be dedicated to this and I'm not sure that is possible.  This is part of the family dynamic you will have to figure out.  However, everyone that comes to my place for any length of time has to learn the elements of good horsemanship.  If they don't, they are not allowed around the horses.  It is just safe and fair that way.  Your husband will have to approach Stryder in a fresh way, a clean slate, no anger or fear.  Just halter him up, and go to work.  Get right to the feet.  I would even saddle him and make him carry tools and gear!  There should be no free lunch.  Give the horse a job, help your whole family understand how to become a leader your horse can trust.  When all of this takes shape, you will be working together like a cohesive team, problems solved.  

Hope this helps!  Keep me posted!
Denise


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: At the risk of being a pest...I need another follow-up!

You gave me much to think about!! And challenged my thinking in regards to NH. Though I have seen it work beautifully with my other horses, perhaps there is more/different that I need to explore. I have seen very positive effects from the ground games, so I have to say there is some real good in them. But I am not opposed to finding even better ways, if they're out there. I am a lifelong student of the horse - there is always more to learn!

Even as I was reading your excellent response to my last post, my daughter walked in to tell me she had been in the field with her 10 year old cousin and wanted to see Stryder's reaction to him. They approached nonchalantly, he was grazing. He lifted his head, recognized her, went back to grazing. When the cousin approached and reached to pet the withers, Stryder immediately pinned his ears and attempted to swing his head towards him but with Cassidy standing there, he stopped and just stood there looking grouchy. Cassidy had her cousin step away. She said Stryder let out a long breath, ears went forward. Cousin stepped back in; ears pinned flat. Cousin stepped back out; Stryder snorted (the kind horses do when frightened or on high alert...) They exited the field.

This is interesting. There is no history between the cousin and Stryder. So why the annoyance? Yes, I suppose he could see him as an intruder into his domain. Stryder, the only gelding, is lowest on the pecking order. It's just fascinating to me. I'd love to understand this - from the horse's perspective! None of the other horses act like this. They greet strangers with friendly ears and soft eyes. Personalities are different, I know. This different?

Do you just keep strangers to the horse away from the horse then? Would it be helpful to the horse to have strangers/others approach in this controlled manner so they can become comfortable with strangers/others in their domain?

I really do appreciate the time you have taken with these questions! If I've taken up too much of your time and you can't respond - I understand. You've already given me much food for thought.

Blessings.

(oh, my daughter has excellent timing. She has a real gift with dealing with what's going to happen before it happens. Great timing and feel so I don't think this could have complicated things.)

Answer
Hi Barbie!

I'm happy to answer your questions but it is time for some straight talk and tough love.  

Ray taught Pat all of the classical ground work.  Pat took the information and turned it into the  games.  If you look at Buck's book, you will see the similarities, however games are for humans and they are changed just enough that it changes the human, not in a good way and frustrates the horse.  Watch Buck's DVD on Ground work it will help.

Okay, this is going to be hard for you...your daughters timing is not good.  You have to accept that and recognize that you need to change some very basic and big things to solve what you have created.  This is NOT the horses fault.  Every time you are with your horse you are teaching him.  Your daughter took her cousin out to the horse and allowed the horse to pin his ears, threaten, be angry and did nothing.  Where is the good judgement here?  Where is the feel?  Where is the timing?  And most importantly, where is the leadership?  I'm beginning to get a clearer picture of what is going on.

You need to go back and re-read my previous answers.  Also go and read the web site offered by Rick Gore.  He has put in thousands of hours into creating it and it has some very valuable information.  You think you daughter has a gift, that sounds like a proud Mom.  From a more realistic position, you daughter took a younger person into a pasture with a horse that is being taught to be aggressive, brought out the behavior, did nothing to change the situation and left the pasture.  STOP.  Take some responsibility for what you are doing.  You know in your gut that things are going wrong, that is why you asked the questions.  Now, be brave enough to accept what you are doing, and change things.  I consider what your daughter did with the horse to be teasing him and encouraging this very dangerous behavior.  Maybe she likes the thought of being the only one able to be around this horse but trust me, in very short order she too will be the object of his aggression.  

I think you owe it to your horse to stop playing this very dangerous game.  Stop blaming the horse and look in the mirror.  I don't think you are really ready to change.  I think you want to blame and not take responsibility.  Maybe when someone is finally really hurt, you may take this seriously.  Go back and re-read what I wrote. You have been looking for an easy answer from me, one that blames the horse, or focuses the attention else where when the problem is you and your daughter.  

Change YOU.  Be the leader your horse is looking for.  Do your homework and stop trying to convince ME that the answer is somewhere else.  Be humble enough to accept what I have just told you before some one is really hurt and your horse ends of having to pay the price.

If you don't believe what I'm telling you...submit this question to Rick Gore.

I hope you accept what I'm trying to share with you, for the good of your horse, your daughter and your family.

Denise



Barbie, you may want to go back and read this again...and again.  You were NOT disrespected.  SHEEZE!!!  I told you something you didn't want to hear.  You don't want to think the problem is you  or heaven forbid you daughter!!!!  You want someone to pat you on the head and tell you everything is wonderful.  You FINALLY painted a pretty accurate picture and frankly I'm shocked that you are all still in one piece!!!  What your daughter did was totally irresponsible!!! AND you allowed it!!!!  I gave you the good swift kick in the pants you have been needing.  I offered to you exactly what my teachers and mentors would have done.  Take it or leave it.  Just make sure your insurance is paid up.

Denise