Trouble socializing rates to me and each other.

Question
QUESTION: Hello.

I've written you before about my pet rats. I have 2 girls, which I have had for a few years. I've recently adopted 2 older boys and have picked up a younger girl (less than 1 year) on the way.

I've had all kinds of trouble socializing them to each other. The boys are cool with the girls. Felix really doesn't care one way or the other, and Sammy is very social. The problem is the girls. Yoshi, the oldest, is scared to death of the boys. She'll give them a sniff, then take off running & hide behind me. Lucy puffs out, hisses, and has already had two negative encounters with Sammy. They were both Lucy's fault, as she's totally aggressive towards him.

What's interesting is Lucy's attitude towards everyone has changed since one of her cage mates, Bob, died in January. She's nipping everyone that's not me or my wife. Even people she knows can't touch her unless I'm standing directly in her vicinity.

I've tried open space, in a neutral cage, everything I can think of. Nothing is working.

The second problem is socializing our newest, Penelope, to us. We haven't even tried with the other rats. She's very curious, will run all over us, sniff us, etc. The problem arises when we try to touch her or pick her up. We can now pet her a bit without her jumping out of her skin ALL THE TIME, but she still does it more often than not. She also bites. Hard. It seems she wants to test everything with her mouth, and that includes our hands and arms. She's albino & was born with only one eye, so she probably can't see a thing. We leave her cage door open so she can go back in and out as she pleases during play time. She's still scared to let us show any kind of affection. Forget picking her up. My wife recently tried, and Penelope screamed as if she was being stabbed. She'll sniff her bare skin, sometimes for 10 seconds, but eventually she'll take a chomp. We've had her for about 2 months. She's had no socialization before we got her.

Two odd cases, I'm sure. Do you have any ideas?

ANSWER: Hi Jim


Before I go on, I do need to ask if the girls are spayed or the boys neutered? Because if you dont want babies, your going to have them sooner or later if they stay around each other.
Females can pop out up to 20 babies just to warn you. EEP!!

So lets talk about little Penelope first. Your right to assume she probably cannot see much. Missing one eye and the other being around 20/600 vision should tell you alot. She is legally blind if she were a human. Also because she has not been socialized she is basically a blind feral rat scared to death of humans and rightfully so. We have been trying to eradicate their very existence for hundreds of years.
When you approach her, if you dont start to talk to her and allow her to hear your voice first this will startle her since she cannot see you good. Although rats hear wonderfully well, she may not hear well either. Its hard to say since she is still fairly new to your colony.
Does she have any odd behavior about her, such as waving her head around or pointing it up toward the ceiling alot (nose straight up?) Many rats will do the typical head swaying where they sit very still, focus straight ahead on an object and sway their heads back and forth as if they are trying to size up an object or distance before making a move. THis is exactly what they are doing: rats have lousy judge of depth and distance so they try focus using Motion Parallax. The head swaying I mean with Penelope is more dramatic, like she is going to fall over she is moving it so much.
Also, rats that are very visually challenged use their wonderful whiskers to take the place of their bad vision. She will sense you with her whiskers so before you touch her, tap the surface in front of her and say her name a few times gently reaching for her. Make sure you wash your hands off well and especially remove the other rat smells you have on yourself.
Also, do you have a special play area for the rats during play time?

Before I go on about trust training Penelope and also the other girl.

How long has it been since you brought the boys home?
Do they live in one cage or are the boys in their own cage?


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Yes, they do have their own play area, but they all play in the same area. Not at the same time. Do you think her having a separate play area would help?

No swaying of Penelope's head, but she does bolt around quickly. She doesn't appear to be afraid of us, as she climbs all over our arms and legs. She seems to desperately want interaction. However, she doesn't want us to touch her. As I said, she's not as bad as she was, but she's still pretty bad.

The boys have been here since February. They have their own cage. We tried to put the cages close, but poor Yoshi was scared to death & Lucy was puffing up to 2x her size. I'm having real issues here.

ANSWER: Hi again

I am thinking for now, put them in a separate play area.  Its obvious the gals (especially Lucy!)are not fond of the newcomers and it may take a bit more time for them to adjust. However, unless they are spayed or neutered its a wise idea to keep them apart anyhow.
As for Penelope, I am thinking as I said before, she may be blind or very close to it anyhow.  Does she venture out of her cage on her own during play time?   Who does Penelope live with? Is she alone yet or have you introduced her to the other rats?

Sorry for all the questions, but it helps me try to learn a bit more about your rats and their personality and if I can try to create in my mind their living arrangements as well as their personalities it makes it easier for me to think like they are thinking.



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: The boys are fixed, the girls are not. I've tried to be patient with both groups, but this has been going on since February. Lucy's the problem, do doubt. Since Bob died, she's very protective of Yoshi. I believe Yoshi's fear is a direct result of Lucy's aggression towards the boys.

Penelope lives by herself, and she can't wait for play time. She bolts freely & crawls all over us. She's crawled on the boys' cage, and I didn't see any aggression from any of the three.

Sorry about the double question.

Answer
Thats ok about the double question....it probably took long to go through and you hit submit twice. Happens alot.

I didnt mean to wait the weekend to get back with you either. With Mothers day and all....and it is the first year that my daughter (who was in college for 4 years) is now financially independent and making really good money as an RN with her 4 year degree, she really spoiled me for Mothers day, from all kinds of cute clothes for summer to a nice dinner last evening (with an hour wait for the table!! ARGH!) So I didnt get to your question till this morning.  Sorry about that too.

ANYHOW (and sorry for going off topic! LOL!!)   sometimes adult rats are really really hard to get together, which I guess is obvious.
To be honest it may never really work unless you sit back and let them duke it out with lots of hissing and fighting and I do NOT advise it. With the boys neutered, this is why they are so lax. There is nothing more easy going than a neutered male rat. Once males do make it through puberty, they are more laid back anyhow, but without any of those male hormones racing through their body, they are super mellow. The girls would still be like they are if they are spayed, however, since spaying removes estrogen levels and all, but estrogen isnt really the culprit for female aggression. Its more natural instinct if anything.

Training Lucy not to nip will be difficult since she doesnt do it to you or your wife.  Normally when I trust train a bite, I do it during playtime and when they bite me, I end playtime and put the rat back in the cage without their treat.  WHen they dont bite, they get rewarded several times with a snack reserved only for trust training. It works most of the time but since Lucy doesnt bite you, this method wont work.  I do believe this is natural instint to protect her cagemate due to fear of losing her since she lost one already. Rats truly mourn when they lose their cagmates.  You can look at it this way too: I have lost rats and have had clients lose rats from illness after their cagemate dies. The problem is, it was believed the cagemates were catching whatever it was the deceased rat had and this was cause of death.  Doing necropsies on the rats would prove otherwise and the rats were sick from other ailments not linked to their deceased cagemate. Blood tests proved their immune systems were totally bottomed out and we link that to stress. Stress due to mourning their beloved lost cagemate which in turn caused their illness. Necropsies are not fun to talk about but I do recommend them to everyone that loses a rat to unknown causes. This teaches us so much more about rats and to learn more like this is a total benefit to our rats! A gross necropsy is usually free with the cost coming in if the vet sends tissue samples out. Many people decline to send them out which is fine since a good vet can usually find the problem visually.  Not always but often.  Sorry for bringing that up, but it is important to know.

Anyhow, at least Lucy remained healthy even though she is showing some odd behavior problems.  
Rats can be given daily anti anxiety medications. Liquid valium is one of them and it doesnt make them all drowsy if given in low doses. I have seen rats with serious issues make a complete about face. However, its really not a drug just any traditional vet is aware of for rats to take so its hard to get them to agree unless you have an exotic vet that is up to date on things concerning rats. Other than that, its like pulling teeth to get it for your rats.  Other readers of suggested bachs rescue remedy which is a natural herb. It acts like valium. I will say that I have no experience with this but thought I would bring it up in case you wanted to Google it.
Other than that, I would say that patience, and I know you are running out of it...is all you can have at this point OR simply let your self finally accept that you are going to have to separate mischeifs of rats with one that has herself a bit off kilter emotionally butI do feel she will come to terms with her loss and move on to accept the neuters.  If you keep them near each other but maybe put cardboard between their cages they will continue to smell each other which may help.  I would try to put Penelope with the neuters. She may just be skittish because she is solo too. I really feel that she is blind or close to it which is why she freaks when touched. I would let her meet the neuters on neutral grounds and see what happens.  Let me know how that goes...I am curious now.

thanks

Sandy