Oxygen...how much do I give her?

Question
QUESTION: Hi there. My rat Blondie is 2 years and 8 months old I have paid bucks taking her and my others back and fourth to the vet enough to learn to try and treat them as much as I can myself. Anyways, I belive she has CHF (all symptoms there) and all the prescriptions for Baytril, Doxycycline, Enilpril, and Lasix were unsuccessful in making her much better. She has been sick for a LONG time! So I know from observing her and researching that the blue tip of tail and extremities means she needs oxygen and after the humidifier and Nebulizer didn't do much at all I decided to rent (and buy) and oxygen tank. Problem is I have no clue what type of regulator to buy nor how much should be given to her. This whole oxygen tank thing is very new to me. Can you help me with this? How much to distribute and how to read the gauge would be much appreciated. All I really know is where to buy one!

Thanks,
Nikki

ANSWER: This is a tough one because I would need to know how much space she will be kept in.  If you plan on having her in an aquarium, how big will it be?  Having CHF, if that is what she has, she should not need much space to roam.  She should have at least 1 LPM which is l liter per minute if she were in a 10 gal tank.  Maybe 2LPM to start.

She may have more than just CHF, she could have cardiomyopathy which is more common in older rats that many vets realize.  I am not familiar with the regular tanks to know about the regulators as that is all handled by the vet and techs, but I can tell you the one I have at home is an oxygen generator and all you do is plug it in and keep the filter clean and water in the bottle if you want humidity which I suggest. Keeping a rat with heart disease hydrated is important.  Have you tried enalapril with atenolol?  That may really help as well as oxygen treatment.  

I do have to share something with you that I tell many rat owners like you that are uber experienced with rat ailments like you and I are: If you can get her to be comfortable with the 02 and meds, like trying atenolol, that is great, but keep in mind she will only be comfortable in the atmosphere with the 02 going. You wont be able to take her out for long to play with her or anything.  I had several rats with heart disease in oxygen and they had absolutely no quality of life other than they were alive and not suffering.  One day the 02 generator broke and one of my boys started to turn blue and was starting to pass away as I raced to the vet to let him go.  I vowed never to do that again to my rats and keep them alive on oxygen.  I am not saying NOT to do it, because if my tank was working again and it were my rat, I would, I know I would.... but just....well play it by ear and listen to your heart too.  Now I am going to have it fixed in case my two older boys end up with pneumonia or some other ugly respiratory infection but I will use it with meds and to help them breathe and to nebulize them while they are sick and if I know me, I will do the same as you and make my rat as comfortable as possible, but just try to remember when enough is enough if you know what I mean. My heart goes out to you....I hate this for our rats!

Anyhow, did you already get the oxygen tank? What kind is it? A cylinder type, do you know?  Did you look into getting or renting the oxygen generator? They are alot easier to use and you never have to buy oxygen since it makes its own. You can use it up to 5 Lpm which usually not warranted for a tiny rat.  

let me know more about what you are considering buying or have already at home etc....



REVISED:   I see you asked where to buy one: A home medical supply place is good, but some need a prescription from the vet or doctor. You can also try looking on craigs list?  I would go for an oxygen generator for sure though!

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I ordered an itty bitty one on Ebay that comes with the regulator and mask and tubing and all but it wouldn't be here until Monday so I called around and ended up renting one from a welding supply place. I think it is a 20 CF? It says that on the tank...don't know what that means. It's already hooked up now, I bought a regulator and I already had some tubing. She is in her cage (about 36" x 18" x 20")and all the ramps were removed a while ago when her hind legs grew weak.

ANSWER: It means the tank holds 20 cubic foot of 02

what is on the regulator?  Tell me what you see as far as numbers go?

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I forgot to mention....the vet only gave me enilpril to try and then Lasix, no atenolol. I had to request these meds because he is not exactly a RAT specialist and I just go online and research and ask other experienced rat owners to determine what I need to try. Honestly, there are no vets in my town that are very "Rat Savy". I've looked everywhere and the closet one is Sacramento (I am in Stockton, CA)but as many rats as I've had (former breeder), this guy is the most resonable and he is at least open to suggestions and will work with you. When all of your females start to develop tumors (then again and again) the price for their surgeries alone can leave you broke!
The tank has already ran out of O2!!! What the...is this how quickly it is out? I only had it on for about 20 minutes with hardly any O2 coming through the tube! Did they not fill it all the way? How can you even tell? I can take some pix of poor Blondie so you can see how she looks later if you'd like. Thanks for all your help!

Answer

Patches   Here are some vets listed way at the bottom under all of my blabber.  :)
I know they may not be any closer or maybe even further out than the place you are talking about in Sacramento (I cant find that one on my list of exotic specialists or even general practice vets with exotics as a special interest which more of them are the latter than the certified specialist unfortunately. Just an FYI, since there are no vets that hold a specialty in small mammal medicine (yet) and when they are exotic vets that are certified they are almost always avian/exotic with our small mammals being on the back burner as always, there is a brand spankin new specialty for vets to consider, which is the Exotic Companion Mammal Practice (ECM). The new specialty will focus on small mammals including of course our ratties, bunny rabbits, ferrets, guinea pigs, hamsters, gerbils, mice and other small mammals. This is soooooooooo exciting I could just scream (I think I did at least squeal when I heard this last year!)  The good news is testing will begin this year and so we may be seeing these vets very soon. I do believe that for ECM, the residency is to be 36 months and the test (I heard) is a grueling state board exam that may be divided into two parts (two days) there is alot to learn about all of these animals but the other good news is when your learning about rodents, this includes mice, hamsters, rats, gerbils etc...so it wont be like the vets will have to study individually. The rest comes from going to conferences etc... I thought you would like to hear this. So many people are under the impression that all exotic vets are masters with rats too and that just isnt true. Some exotic vets may only see two rats a year but its not their fault, its the pet owner. One reason we lack these vets in the first place is that there are alot of people that are not willing to spend money on a rat that cost $5 at a pet store and only lives to be 2 -4 years (4 if your lucky, I have only been that lucky once with my girl making it to almost 4 years old)

And our females....if only it was easy enough to have them spayed...we could see less mammary and pituitary tumors that claim their lives too early and of course as you know, put one helluva dent in the pocket book trying to remove them only to watch them come up again sometimes before the stitches come out.  I wont own another female again unless I spay her and of course i would buy a pair or maybe even four girls and spaying all four would be pricey as heck....so boys it is, which I dont mind a bit. I love male rats too.

As for the oxygen tank, I had a feeling it would not be enough. Can you return it?  I know my mom had to be on it for life and she had this massive tank in her room and would fill up her portable one. The tank lasted just a month and it was bigger than I am!!  

I also gave you the URL to a website with the oxygen generators/concentrators, just to see what they look like. They make their own oxygen, no need to ever have it filled up with anything.  You can even attach a portable to it and fill it up for people that need to carry one around with them when they leave the house etc... I bought mine on ebay many years back before they asked for a script from a doctor for $300 and brand new they go for $600 up to $1500 or as much as you can spend actually.  All I did was plug mine in, turn the dial to how many liters per minute I wanted and keep the filters clean. I had a bottle for distilled water to so it can hydrate the rats living space but I didnt use it all the time as it got kind of cool inside. It also gets warm so I would keep the generator in the hallway, and had a super long hose that I fed under the door and into the rats tank. I just hung the hose in the aquarium and it would fill up nicely and keep the rat out of respiratory distress. No cyanosis at all anymore, just nice pink feet. no gasping, no wheezing....
Once I had a rat that freaked in the aquarium so i covered his entire little cage with plastic (real thick plastic) except for a small hole for the oxygen tube. I pieced it together so I could open the cage door though and he was not well enough to chew at the plastic. He just laid around alot due to hind leg paralysis, but yet he had so much spunk in him, still eating, bruxing, grooming me.....he would pull himself around the cage so I kept the litter up and he would propel around on the plastic floor real fast...it was adorable.  He even used his litter box. When he felt really out of breath, he would go to the tube and breathe the fresh oxygen and i knew to turn it up more. he was letting me know when he wasnt getting enough. They do get worse despite the oxygen being used so keep that in mind too.  How long did you use the enalapril for?  
Also, you may want to check out my website on heart disease. I am sure you have read tons of info till your eyeballs were ready to pop off but maybe there is something else I have to say that may help. Here is the URL:

http://www.freewebs.com/crittercity/heartandkidneydisease.htm


Also, to know what I mean by oxygen generator, here is a random website I found with photos. I bet you will recognize them soon as you see it:

http://www.southwestmedical.com/Respiratory_Care/Oxygen_Concentrators/470c0


Also, I would love to see your rat. You can attach a photo right here on this site. After your done with your message to me, click on PREVIEW. From there, before hitting SEND, there is a place to attach an image. Click on ATTACH AN IMAGE and it will bring up a BROWSE box so you can go on your files and find the photo you want to send me. It only lets you put one photo up though. Anyhow after you find the photo you want, click it and it will attach to the page and simply hit SEND. I put a picture of one of my boys to show you an example of how you can attach to give you an idea.  


Dr. Corey Thompson
Animal Care Center    
100 E. Monte Vista Avenue
Vacaville CA 95688
Phone:    707-448-6275
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Dr. Kristin Sinclair
University of California - Davis    
One Shields Ave.
Davis CA 95616
Phone:    530-752-1393

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Dr. Mona Miller
Four Seasons Animal Hospital    
3210 Old Tunnel Road
Lafayette CA 94549
Phone:    925-938-7700

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Dr. Shachar Malka
Sacramento Animal Medical Group    
4990 Manzanita Av.
Carmichael CA 95608
Phone:    916-331 7430
Website: www.vcasamg.com