Accidental litter

Question
QUESTION: Hi
I have a bareback with a spot on her back beautiful girl rattie.  One of my boys had gotten out of his cage by my son while I had the girls out playing, the little monster snuck out on him at the door, but anyways my bareback, Joey had gotten pregnant, and had two babies with complications on the 3rd of October.  Joey almost died in the process of it, but is thriving now.  I ended up taking care of the babies for her as I couldn't find a foster mommy to take care of them for me.  I used soy infant formula, a heating pad with space for the babies to move if it was too hot, and I also massaged them after every feeding time every 2-3 hours, and stimulated them to defecate and urinate before and after every feeding time, but they seemed kind of skinny, I also kept trying to put them back with their mommy, but she just didn't want anything to do with them :(  I did lose one yesterday and the other one this morning :(  
I was wondering do you think maybe Joey may have been too old for it?  I adopted her in February and she was about 5-6 weeks old then, I don't know exactly because she was adopted from a pet shop, which is all we really have around here right now to be able to get pet rats.  I have talked with a breeding in California about adopting some pedigree pet rats from her in the future, but because they would have to be shipped by air I needed to save up some money first, and make sure I make room and make a new cage before getting them.  Anyways, I do hope to be a good pedigree pet rat breeder too in the future, but before I do I'm trying to do extensive research.  I do not plan on becoming a breeder right off, as I know I do have a lot to learn, and I really want to be able to give families up here in northern New York healthy and sweet temperamental brats (I like to call my pet rats brats, mostly because just about every time I say the word rat there is always somebody that cringes to even just the word.  Most people give in and end up liking my brats the more I tell them about them in the end though, but still it happens whenever I say the word rat, plus it's kind of cute I think.  I've have never thought of the word brat negatively, and all of my brats do a bit live up to the name haha :)

Oh, anyways, I read in a few places that, if too old, would not be able to give birth because their bones fuse together.  I'm wondering if maybe that's what maybe the trouble was with Joey, although she did give birth to two babies, something went wrong somewhere.  She seemed to keep trying to have another one or some more, but just couldn't :(  I was going to keep her two babies and if she did have more in that labor I did have homes lined up as soon as I figured out that she was pregnant, the little monster.  She seemed so happy too while she was pregnant, poor little girl :(  

Sorry I tend to do a sort of back and forth thing when I write or talk haha  I would like to know how old is the cut off limit, and do you think maybe Joey is too old?  She is the sweetest brat I've known thus far, and I would like to keep her line going if I can, plus I already have homes lined up too.  I do have a perfect boy for her that is So sweet and gentle, loves to be pet, never has bitten or had any agression at all...actually he's a boy version of Joey except different coloring :)  He's about two months younger than she is, so I would also like to ask, because I've also read and heard that it's good to let them get to adulthood just to make sure about agression, because it could come later...do you think he would be old enough now to be able to see?  

I think the two babies were going to be one agouti hooded, and one agouti bareback, which to me were going to be Gorgeous....Gorgeous babies.  I have been so wanting those markings and colors.  I'm putting a link down below for you to see some pictures of them.  I don't think they were going to be black, because the dark markings weren't that dark.  I was wondering if you might be able to tell if they would have been agouti or maybe mink or maybe not cinnamin, but what do you think?  I've put pictures of Joey and Robbie, the boy I was telling you about, on the webpage too to show you what they look like too.  Also I noticed the whiskers on the babies seemed like they might have been satin.  They a little bit wavy, but not curly.  I wonder if it would have been too soon to tell or what do you think?  I hope the pictures are good enough for you to see.  They were very wiggly so sometimes it was hard to take pictures.  

Well, I probably talked your ear off...so sorry.  I really love how this is set up.  I did ask the breeder in California if she would be my mentor, but it's hard to get a hold of her sometimes, so this is really great to have, and I'm glad you guys are here for us brat lovers to be able to ask questions :)  Thanks

Oh, I do have one more question...haha...sorry...I was wondering if you might be able to tell what sex the baby is that I have pictured at the bottom of my webpage?  Sorry they're not very clear, it was the best I could get.

http://www.geocities.com/cloversleaf/BabyBrats.html

Naomi

ANSWER: Well Naomi; some ratties aren't ready to be parents. Sounds like something happened with Joey that gave her the hard labor, and as a result, she decided not to nurse these babies --- most likely because she knew instinctively they were not going to survive, and rats tend to pick their battles. You did what you could; and you can feel good about that - I have never known ANYONE that can raise infants from pinkie on up! Not even myself; and I've been raising rats for years. So pat yourself on the back for trying.

Joey looks like a champagne -- its hard to tell from the pictures, but she may just be beige. Although to me beige is darker. But eh! We'll guess Champagne. Robbie is an agouti (you know this already). When breeding those colors together - actually any color + agouti - you get agouti or black! (Primarily - agouti)

Agouti is extremely dominant, and actually very undesired by a lot of breeders because its so difficult to breed OUT of a line. It's hard to tell from your pictures but its a very good assumption that they were agouti babies. Both were standard coat - rex (curly) and any kind of variation of the rex gene is a shower, if your rat carries rex, she/he displays rex, period. It's also very dominant. I know NOTHING about satin genetics, other than they're very hard to find when you want a pair.

The myth that ratties' hips fuse together after 8 to 9 months of age is a hold over from the cavy (guinea pig) world. This isn't true with rats. I'm hesitant to breed maiden does after their 1st birthday; but it can be done and many breeders make solid practice of it. I generally start breeding my does between 4 and 5 months of age, they're bred a maximum of 3 times and are given good, solid breaks between each litter. Joey isn't at all too old; but you need to keep this incident in mind. If I have a doe with issues during her first litter, I breed her tandem with another doe - that way if she has issues again, I have a mother to foster the litter onto so the babies survive. This COULD happen again. It may not. But who knows for certain? How old is Robbie - 6 months ish? That would be about the time you'd start seeing attitude issues arise if there are going to be any.

If I may ask... what breeder did you speak to? I'm located in Southern California and generally know or have met most of the breeders in the state. (If you're uncomfortable replying about that here, please feel free to e-mail me as well at angelfinx@hotmail.com)

Oh and the baby genitalia picture there.. I'm pretty sure that's a boy.. I'd have to see it in person to tell for 100% positive, but I'd say boy :)

Sorry for your loss! I hope Joey is doing well though.


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello :)

Thank you for your reply back :)  If I do choose to breed her, I will match one of my other girls with one of my boys, because I definitely would not want any of us to go through that again, me or my sweet bratties.  

Robbie is actually a baby from my hairless, Jilly.  When I adopted Jilly from the pet shop she was already pregnant.  Of course I missed that little mishap in all of my reading before I adopted her, and I ended up keeping all of her little ones, mostly because I wasn't sure about aggression in the babies.  I really wouldn't want to send a baby home with someone who could turn out to be aggressive.  Robbie was born in March, so he's about 7 months old now.  And actually I was very lucky that all of Jilly's babies are not aggressive at all, never even try to bite, not even play bite any of our hands :)  Only thing I noticed was with the baby girls from Jilly.  They will not let me pick them up for nothing.  They don't bite or become aggressive with me, I think they are just scared for me to do it.  They just squeak as loud as they can as if they're yelling at me, and dart away.  I figure they're scared.  Maybe I should have handled them more.  I don't remember handling the boys more than the girls, but it's possible.  They do love to climb into my sleeves, and up my arm, and onto my shoulder.  They just don't like to be picked up, so I just try to respect their wishes :)  It's just a good thing they're able to come into my sleeve so that I can put them in their cages after playtime haha :)

The breeder is Hilloah of Ratz Realm :)  I've only spoken to her once, as I was inquiring about her Harley ratties, which I'm very much in love with.  I hope to be able to buy a few Harley ratties from her :)  And in the midst of talking about that I had mentioned to her that I would like to, in the future, become a fancy rat breeder up here, of course mostly to better health and temperament, and also because there literally are none up here.  I did find some sites online of breeders in New York, but they're not doing it anymore.  And Hilloah had mentioned to me that she does get calls from New York, people looking to adopt pet rats, and I've actually come across quite a few people who are great candidates to adopt some of these beautiful sweeties :)  Well anyways while I spoke to her that time on the phone I had asked her if, when I do start my rattery, if she might be able to help me out, maybe sort of a mentor, or someone I could call or email to ask questions and such.  I know she's really busy, and I don't like to try to bother anyone.  It took a while to get a hold of her that one time, so I haven't really called or emailed her lately, but I did tell her when I am able to adopt a few Harleys from her I would get in touch with her, and after that when I start my rattery too :)  

Thank you so much for all of your kind words about Joey's babies.  It has really broken my heart :(  I was really excited about them, as I would love nothing more than to just see little Joey's babies bouncing around like Joey does.  Joey makes me laugh so hard with her comical ways, and I'm sure it would have been passed right on :):(  In the back of my mind though I did keep thinking if Joey didn't want them, then something is wrong, and it wasn't supposed to be.  I was just in pieces the day after Joey went into labor, because I think she was dying.  I just could not stop crying.  I held her and prayed so hard.  She is just so special to me.  I mean I love all of my brats, but Joey has a very special place in my heart, and I cried uncontrollably  because I believed that she was going to die and possibly her babies too :( and then I would have nothing of her but memories..too soon.  That is actually a very soft spot for me, because I lost my mom too soon, and I think it's very hard for me to loose anything or anyone else too soon anymore.  Although I like to think that maybe she too has a special place in her heart for me too, because she fought hard to be able to stay here with me, God bless her :)  And she has been thriving and bouncing around again, making me laugh :)  I really don't know about miracles...but love...it really does conquer all :)

Now I just wish I could find a real certified exotic vet less than 4 hours away, as I just found out tonight from a website from another expert here in this site, the one from Watertown is not even listed there :(

Thank you So much!  

Naomi

Answer
Girls can be so BUSY that I've noticed some specific bloodlines of mine are a bit more chatty than others when you go to pick them up. They're not frightened per se; just don't want to be held - or touched - unless it's THEIR idea! Rotten :) I love my kids but man they can be so particular.

I'm very glad that Joey is doing better now.. it's so hard to lose them early. I lost my absolute best-rat-friend ever at the ripe age of 2 1/2 and it was STILL way too early for me. It will always be 'too soon', as rats live far too short of a life.

Hilloah is a very nice woman - but yes, very busy. Her rattery is HUGE (or it was last I saw it).

Good luck with your ventures! If you ever need any help, feel free to e-mail me or ask through this site.