Many, many mice... advice please.

Question
Hi Natasha,

I've read many of your answers and have gained a lot of useful knowledge. Thank you. I haven't come across anyone with quite the problem I have though.  (I apologise in advance for the length of this message).

I'm new to mice but have fallen completely in love with them! I got 14 girls three weeks ago, three of which have now had babies (Storm, Pip and Marshmallow) and another two are pregnant (Olive and Teyla). They are mostly Manx, some long coated and curly.

One mouse that we thought was pregnant, Pancake, never had the babies but retained her friendly-to-me but bossy-to-her-girlfriends, attitude.

Molly was introduced to the group one week after I got the 13 and, aside from getting a hard time from Pancake, settled in well.

Storm had her babies on the 13th and Pip one week later. Marshmallow has just had hers yesterday. Olive may have had hers last night and Teyla is possibly a day or two away.

The remaining girls, Stitch, Peppy, Boo, Biscuit, Motzi, Cassidy and Cashew are smaller and may not have been as mature as the first mentioned mice. The lady I got them from kept males with females and her mice were of various ages. I do not intend to do the same. Thankfully the lady is now separating the males and females into two cages so the insane breeding will eventually stop.

For the little lives that are now my responsibility though, I can't stomach the thought of giving any of the babies to a pet shop on the off-chance that someone will give them a loving home. I got Molly for free from a teenager who had listed her on a classifieds site for two weeks and had no interest. I took her because she is gorgeous and I couldn't bear the thought of her going to a pet shop. At that stage I didn't realise I had so many pregnant girls. :-o

All 14 mice lived in a large converted dog crate that I covered in mesh and set up with two levels, tubes, hanging baskets, nests, wheels and branches. Until the pregnancy hormones kicked in, it was all working very well. (Storm is a beautiful girl, even when pregnant she wasn't nasty.)

Storm gave birth about the same time that Molly joined the group. Molly took on a nanny role that Storm seemed to appreciate.

Pip had her babies on the 20th Feb and the dynamic changed. Molly was ousted from her nanny role and became public enemy number one. The situation went downhill. Two days ago I removed Molly from the group after finding bites on her tail, one that looked too nasty for my liking. It was already scabbed over and doesn't need vet care but I couldn't leave her in there. The poor thing wouldn't come out of her plant pot nest and Pip and Marshmallow would go in there and torment her. :-(

I set up a new house for Molly and three of her friends, Motzi, Cassidy and Cashew. They get along well... except now Molly chases Cashew. I'm keeping an eye on that. I can't put Cashew back in with the others because she used to get chased there... not badly, not like what they did to Molly, but it's sad to see her being harassed again here. *sigh*

Okay, that's the background, now to my questions.  :-)

1) should I try to see and handle the babies?
Storm's are now almost 2 weeks old but Marshmallow's will only be a few days old. I have seen Storm's but I've not handled them (she had at least 10). I looked two times and after both those times Storm moved all the babies to a different nest. Pip's babies are in the same shoebox as Storm's and I assume so are Marshmallow's. I'm not worried about space or nesting material. They had it packed full of soft paper before Storm moved back in.

2) Should I be fearful of cannabilism because the litters are different ages?

3) Should I set Teyla up in another cage so she has her babies away from the other litters?

I found one dead and half eaten baby a week ago. It was outside the nest. I assume it had died rather than it being killed. It was young, only a day or two old. I've found no other evidence of foul play, and the mothers spent a lot of time in the box and eat like horses when out of it.  ;-)

Assuming that a large proportion of the babies survive:

4) Can large numbers of female mice all live together, provided they have sufficient space, food and toys?
I intended for all the girls to live together, even if there ends up being dozens of them. I'm quite crafty and inventive and can convert old furniture into exciting and interconnected 'wings' of a sprawling mansion, but what happened to Molly has shaken my confidence.

5) Should I sort the mice into family groups and set up different cages, or can I assume that the nastiness was due to hormones and trust that if there's enough space, enough interest and toys that many female mice could cohabit?

6) What do I do with the boys?
I'd hoped to set them up a sprawling mansion with sufficient nests, wheels and toys for each of them to have their own territory... but I'd be devastated if any one of them were killed. Is it a risk worth taking, given that I may have large numbers of boys?
Should I accept that I will have to find homes for some of them (in an already pet mouse flooded market)?
Should I set them up in small, individual but connected cages - where they can talk to each other but not reach each other?

Any advice will be most welcome. I'm an adult with the funds and space to deal with this. I wish to do the best for the animals that are my now responsibility and I accept that keeping them all may not be the best thing for them if I can't give them the quality of life they deserve.

Thanks in advance, and I apologise again for the length of this message.

Warm regards,
Caroline

Answer
Hello,

Wow. You have a real situation here. Let me do my best to help.  I was very happy to read "I'm an adult with the funds and space to deal with this." I get so many questions from kids who can't handle the situations responsibly. And thank you so much for numbering. Some of these questions are rambling essays where I cant even figure out what all the questions are!! By the way I made this public because the issue is a common one, and.. I'm not going to put this much energy into answering a question and not have it searchable! <:3   )--~

1. Start handling the babies at 7 days. Take the mom out of the cage first so she doesn't have to watch you take her babies out. Rub your hands in the dirty litter first so they wont smell so much like human. The optimal situation is to handle each one twice a day. Take them all out at once and put them together and then handle each one separately. When they hit 14 days their eyes will open, and within a day or so they will reach the "popcorn" or "flea" stage. You'll find out what that is! You  may have to restrain them at that point. You can cup the mouse in one hand while gently holding the very base of the tail with the other. Then open your hand gently.

Try not to have more than 2-3 litters (better 2) in a nest. They like to help each other but there can be problems. For instance, the bigger babies can hog all the milk and the little ones are malnourished. Or some get stepped on or squished.

2. Normally, parent mice don't cannibalize. The reason people are under the impression that they do is that when a baby dies (or sometimes an adult, for that matter), Mommy eats it. She doesn't want it to rot and either make them sick or attract predators to the nest; and she wants to conserve the nutrition that went into it to give to the other babies. All instinct of course, not thought. The baby might die by itself or she might know it is unhealthy and kill it. However, sometimes they do kill the babies when they are afraid that the situation is too dangerous for them to survive-- again, might as well conserve the nutrition for the next litter. So you might see that happen with the crazy situation you have. Still, if it happens it happens. I'm sure they kill the babies quickly.

3. Yes, as I said, try to separate the pregnant mice before the litters appear. Not after. But let them be two to a nest, or one mommy and one or two aunties to help.

4. In a big enough cage, tons of girls can live together. However, you are correct to separate if there is blood or depression or someone is being kept from the food or nest. You know to never have a mouse alone of course.

5. Girl mice don't care much about who is family. Boys however, if they can live together at all, only get along with litter mates when they have never been separated. However, be ready for the possibility that when they grow up, they will each want their own cage!!  Which is why:

6.  You have a real problem. Yes you have to find homes for them. Advertise in the local paper, put notices up in supermarkets and libraries, talk to science teachers at schools... the trick is to talk and write about how easy they are to care for, sweet, loving, smart, clean, etc. Most people don't know about mice so if a mom sees a cute ad (try a pic of a mouse on it) telling her mice are perfect pets for kids over age 8, maybe she will be drawn in. Or dad. Start now. It's not going to be easy. As I said, they may need separate cages when they are grown! Connecting but adjacent cages are great; I just don't think you can quite do the hundred or so you might have to.

Make sure you separate the sexes at age 4-4 1/2 weeks. Here is a link to an excellent site to help you with this:

http://www.thefunmouse.com/info/sexing.cfm

You can search a little more in my archives for questions about pregnancy and raising babies. And feel free to write back with more questions. If I've answered it before I might be able to find it better than you and can give you the link.

Have fun and best of luck!!

squeaks n giggles,

Natasha