How to handle herd behavior problem- Rick Gore Horsemanship

Question
QUESTION: I purchased two 3 year-old Tenn Walker geldings(palomino-Sunny and blk-Gunner) from the same barn three months ago.  They got along well there.  They are being boarded in a pasture with other horses.  My two were isolated for 2 wks then placed into a herd with 2 mares and 2 other young geldings.  There were a few squabbles between Sunny and the lead mare when they were first introduced but then everyone was getting along well.  Three weeks ago, Gunner was injured(from a fall on ice we think) and had a large laceration on his fetlock joint requiring stall rest for 2 weeks.  During the stall rest I went out to the barn every day to hand walk him and/or let him walk around in the arena for a couple hours.  I would also let him in the adjacent round pen while riding Sunny in the arena.  The second week of stall rest I  put both horses in the arena together.  They acted playful toward each other and not aggressive at all-nibbling at each other withers/faces, rolling, bucking--acting like silly boys, no ear pinning etc.  Gunner is a very mellow and submissive horse and Sunny is a very dominant horse.  Gunner was put back into the pasture with the same group of horses 4 days ago.  His leg is still bandaged but he is not lame on the leg .  Sunny is now attacking Gunner in the pasture.  The first day he chased Gunner and he panicked and got himself wedged between the lean-to and the fence(about 2 feet of space)and since Gunner has been standing in the corner of the far end of the 3acre pasture.  There are two round bales in the pasture but are only about 40ft apart and the waterer is close to the feeders.  Gunner will only come up when I go out to the pasture, halter him and lead him to the hay-which is next to the lean-to he got caught behind.  I led him up to the feeder and smacked Sunny with a training stick when he went after him and then they both ate at the feeder without incident while I was standing there as hall monitor.  I brought both horses in to brush out and there were no problems while tied up in barn aisle about 10ft apart, but when brought back to pasture Gunner immediately trotted to corner of pasture when Sunny was nearing the gate.  He was eating at the bale with all the other horses for 30 min prior.  Today was similar but Gunner was near the waterer and away from the "safe" side of the pasture and before he could head over there Sunny chased him at a full gallop, head down, teeth bared to the far end of the pasture along with the lead mare and one other gelding.  Gunner was with the herd minus Sunny for about an hour while I had Sunny tied in the barn and everyone ignored Gunner and he ate in peace for a while.  I'm worried about Gunner not having access to the food and water and not sure why Sunny is so aggressively going after Gunner when he's not fighting back.  I don't want to interfere and make things worse, but not sure how long to let things run their course without endangering Gunner's health either.  I've been bringing him him daily with Sunny)and feeding him (alfalfa cubes and Nutrena Safe Choice) and he's been eating well and drinking a 1/2 bucket of water.  His skin turgor is good and he can get some moisture from the snow, but I'm still worried about dehydration or ulcers if he's not eating regularly.  Do I need to chill out and relax or are there steps I can do to improve the situation?  At what point would you recommend-removing Sunny, removing Gunner, or removing both and paturing together for 2,4,more? weeks and then re-introducing both to original herd?  There is another herd with a really mean boss mare that would kick the crap out of Sunny per the barn owner and we like the idea of another horse teaching him some manners but are nervous about injuries and don't really want to disrupt another herd either.  Sorry for the extremely long message but not sure what direction to take.  Thank you so much for your time.

ANSWER: what you see may not be what is happening. So what you describe I cannot predict or give advice since I can't see for myself.

Taking out and putting back creates more issues, this sounds more like a pasture design problem, move the hay, put another water bucket on the other side, fix things in your control  and stop trying to fix horses from being horses, which you can't control.

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QUESTION: Ok, so I will ask the barn owners to put another bale out on the other side of pasture. I'll have to bring a bucket out there too, but with it being 10-20 degrees outside not sure how long will stay thawed. I don't think there is an extension cord long enough for a heating element. I'll do an internet seach to see if I can find a solar or battery powered one. What I really want to know is if this is normal behavior or not? Is it expected for a herdmate that formally cohabitated peacefully to completely shun a herd member (that used to be his buddy) with a minor injury that has been away for only 2 weeks? I expected some disruption but not to the degree it has occurred and not for several days. The biggest question is how long to let this go on before doing something to protect the health of the one horse. Gunner has been standing at the far end of the pasture all day and night as far as we can tell for 4 days now. He is only eating and drinking when I bring him in to brush him and pick his feet out daily and he does not have access to shelter.  Today had freezing rain and snow and winds are to pick up in the next few days. I understand that you can't see exactly what is happening and I am limited in what I can describe because I am not out there all day and I am new to herd dynamics. I am very familiar with cat and dog behavior and behavior problems and there are significant differences between even those two predator species and their communications can be extremely complex so I get that I may not be seeing the whole picture. I am not very familiar with horse behavior which is why I am looking for help. I was looking for advice on how best to handle the situation and get an estimate on how long horses usually take to work out their issues. I really appreciate the insight to add more hay and water and I will certainly do that.  I'm really not looking for a "feel good" answer and I'm not mad the one horse for "being mean". I understand that's how horses communicate.  I just really want to do the best thing for my individual horses and for the whole herd in general because I don't want other people's horses injured or stressed either.  So I'll add the new feed/water stations and see how things go. Now, at what point do I get concerned about lack of food/water access if Gunner is getting run off of both stations?  A week, a month?  Only if he starts dropping a bunch of weight?  If this was spring/summer and he had access to grass to graze I would not be nearly as worried about the situation.  At some point do things usually work themselves out or do some horses remain on the outskirts of the herd forever?  Thank you again for your time.  If there is additional information that would help you formulate an opinion please let me know.

ANSWER: this is totally normal, horses vote for leaders every day, two weeks is a long time and new relationships have been made and the herd has changed.  You are seeing this as a human thinking they are friends, they are herd mates, one is higher one is lower, they depended on each other, had one been killed the other has to move on, no time for grieving or you will be killed, the horse left had to get in the herd, now YOU, people want all things to be lovey dovey, it does not work, the more you pull out, the more you try and help the more you try and fix, the more you mess up and prolong. Stop looking for answers, you will not find them, they are horses understand them and accept it or lock them up and protect them for ever.  

This is not about you not about you feeling good, not about you helping, you removed the horse, you put the horse back in, you have choices, the horses do not.  If you understood horses better you could help more, instead you want shortcuts and want me to help, you want me to answer, you want me to tell you what is going on from an email.  had you watched my videos and read my site you would not be asking these questions.  But that takes time and effort so emailing me for fast and quick answer of fix is easier.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I'm not exactly sure why there seems to be so much hostility directed at my question. I have read your site and watched your videos regarding herd behavior as well as several other videos which is why I sent you an email in the first place. Yes, I did choose to bring the horse in for 2 weeks after he was injured and I was directed to do so by a veterinarian due to the severity of the injury. Yes, I did choose to put the horse back out into the pasture because I believe that they should be in a herd situation. I realize the situation was caused by these decisions. I am not a lovey dovey "ooh look at the pretty horsie" person. I know animals of all kinds interact with each other as animals and not as people do. Yes, I am new to horses(3 months ownership), but I have read several books each on horse care, natural horsemanship, riding, training, and gaited breed books. I have watched countless hours of RFD TV and University House Channel and DVR'd eight different horse training/information shows for several months prior to and since I purchased the horses to improve my knowledge base. I have spent countless hours on the internet reading your site as well as five other sites. Yes, I bought younger horses than I should have with my experience level--I was talked into it by a horse trader who said all the right things. Yes, I do board them, but I did interview 4 different facilities and I do go out to the barn almost every day and it's winter in Iowa and freaking cold outside (if it is less than 40 degrees I am usually wrapped up in a blankie with a cat and a book)!  The barn managers are there at least twice daily. I do bring them in from the pasture every time to brush, pick out feet, give some supplemental feed and check them over. I've dewormed them twice, boostered all their vaccines since I didn't have dates, had their teeth floated, removed their shoes and have had their feet trimmed in the three months I've owned them. I work on groundwork with them every time I see them even if for only a few minutes. I ride them 2 times per week now and plan to ride more frequently when the weather improves. I am trying to do the right things. Maybe part of the reason so many people get out of horses so soon is that the mean-spirited, judgemental, experienced horse people assume all new horse people are morons and aren't trying to learn and don't give them a chance.  From what I saw on your website, the behavior from Sunny seemed excessive.  What I saw between my horses has been much more aggressive than the interactions you showed.  Also, Gunner is able to interact normally with the other members of the herd when Sunny is taken out when I groom and ride him so that was confusing to me.  I saw you correcting a horse that was bullying and not letting others near the food and wasn't sure if I should do the same thing.  I asked for guidence about how long this behavior is likely to last and how long is acceptable to leave a horse on the outskirts of a herd without regular access to food and water  I did not see any information about this on your site.  There is a lot of information there and I apologize if it is there and I didn't find it.  I thought that I clearly asked if there was something I could do or if I needed to just leave them alone with the caveat of if I should, or when I should, worry about the situation after what period of time. I was trying to get more understanding and not looking for a shortcut or quick fix.  I am definitely in the "conscious incompetance" stage of my horsemanship journey.  I know that there is so much I don't know and that I will make mistakes but am trying to minimize them as much as possible.  I apologize if I did not have what you consider valid enough questions and wasted your time.  I appreciate the small amount of information you did share despite the negative tone of your responses.

Answer
lol, Nice resume it does not impress me and obviously does not impress horses, if you have read all you say you have read then how did you miss the part that I don't answer questions anymore? Or maybe you read that and just ignored it and maybe you read a lot and ignore what you don't like and only do what you like. what part of I am not there don't you get? What part of all my videos when I say it is impossible to answer horse questions since there are too many variables, like environment, you actions, you level, other horses, and 100 things that can cause things.

I am not a mind reader, you do not do me any favors by asking me questions, if you and other would listen and not talk about how much you try and how much you do right, then maybe you would get it.

People that ask others in depth behavior questions don't know what they don't know or they would  not expect much.  If you don't like my answer then stop writing me. This is not about YOU or your feelings or how hard you try, it is about horses.  So save your BS about how mean I am how people think you are a moron.

Find someone else to babysit you and your questions that can't be answered.  If you ever had to deal with moron horse people day in and day out then you would understand why people are the way they are.  Much like you understood horses more perhaps you not be looking for answers like finding a secret special fix to your special horse with your special problem.

From now on I will send questions to the question pool and let others deal with people like you that just can't get it.