help me if u can

Question
QUESTION: i seriously need help
hope somebody replies
i have a baby RES
its been my pet 4 about 7 months now
she has been sick over the past month through which she ate only 2 bites of fish

about the nutritional history
she didnt like any kinds of food except cooked chicken and meat and fish and egg white
she was the best in health nd was too active all the time
she used 2 like basking in the sun (than the other)

at 1st it stopped eating at all
then her eyes were swollen nd kinda white and maybe i saw her sneezing or coughing and having a nose bubble a few times

all that disappeared except not eating and swollen eyes

THEN I TOOK HER 2 A VET (THE MOST POPPULAR I KNOW)
HE LOOKED VERY NOT EXPERIENCED WITH THEM
HE SAID ITS THE DISEASE OF THE EYE
ITS HERPES AND ITS FATAL AND ITS NON TREATABLE
(i kinda wasnt convinced)
but its really kinda difficult here 2 find a vet who is good with turtles

anyway
afterthat she started  GASPING FOR AIR nd makin noise from time to time while breathing
nd her neck is swollen too(ears)


i suspected a respiratory infection
i raised the temperature of the water to 30 C for two weeks now with no improvement


nd now she always stands on the hind limbs (as if standing on legs )while she is leaning on the walls of the container


NOW maybe the swelling around eyes is not that much instead the skin around the eyes is darker and she kinda cant open them
the neck is swollen
she is very wasted
doesnt eat anything
the most posterior part of the shell (the part she stands on)is going soft
she sometimes does an  EXAGGERATED gasping that looks scary
but goes away if i make her stand as she likes



IS THERE ANYTHING I CAN  DO
i want 2 give her antibiotic injections but i dont know how or where exactly in the forearms
and i dont know about the dose
and we dont have baytril so i was plannin to give her either ampicillin or chloramphenicol
wish somebody can help me with that



ANSWER: It does sound a lot like the herpesvirus- a pretty common disease of turtles and tortoises that causes swollen eyes. it is not treatable and is usually fatal.

OK, so the symptoms are:
- swollen eyes
- coughing, sneezing, runny nose (at first)
- off its diet (common with swollen eyes)
- gasping
- swollen neck
- soft shell
- wasted

It sounds like she has several issues. Soft shell is usually dietary related, and many of the other symptoms sound viral. None of this is treatable by antibiotics.

It may be too late for it, but the best thing I can suggest is reviewing the cares at http://www.redearslider.com and seeing what issues in care, housing, or diet can be tweaked.
I would make suggestions on this, but you do not describe the cares well.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: 1st of all
thanks for your reply

about http://www.redearslider.com/
i already checked it and alot of other sites
thats why i suspected a respiratory infection when i asked about antibiotics...and i read aswell that it can be a viral infection with 2ry bacterial infection so that antibiotics can help.
about the care i have
before she get sick she was in a circular container with 10 cm diameter ...that was before i got a big tank and an UVB lamp and a water filter and a water heater

i left her in these new conditions with water degree 30c
for about 4 days with no improvement then i quaranined it in a smaller container since she doesnt move and the other turtle does
the water is always dechlorinated
is there something i can do????
anything
its really bad to see your pet die like that

so in short
the care is
-dechlorinated water with high temp(a little so that she doesnt swim)
-the container is closed with openings for respiration
(like a box)to keep the humidity

if there is something i can do as an adjuvant therapy
other than that like butritional replacement or so
please tell me



ANSWER: I am having a hard time deciphering your post, so please forgive me for any misunderstandings. I also am having a hard time figuring out what sort of daily cares you are giving, what sort of housing it is in, and even how big the turtle actually is now.

Antibiotics do not work on viral infections, and Respiratory Infections, pneumonia, and Herpesvirus are all viral. Vets often give antibiotics for 'secondary infections' as part of an overall treatment plan- but they will not touch the main infection.

As your vet pointed out, the outcome for Herpesvirus and most other viral infections is not good. Even experienced keepers lose turtles with viral infections- even with all possible veterinary support.

If the turtle's eyes are still swollen, we need to get the eyes open so the turtle can see to eat. Try dribbling warm Turtle Eye Drops, Cod-Liver Oil, or the oil from Cod-Liver Oil gel-caps into the eyes.

The turtle needs a good hospital tank. A good hosptial tank for your turtle would be:
- 25 liters of water per centimeter of shell length (not including the space needed for basking, etc.)
- Water kept VERY clean by strong filtration with a biological filtration element
- Water kept between 28-30C
- Good lighting and UVB- but still allownig shady hiding places
- Minimal stress or handling

We rarely keep turtles in dry tanks any more- it is too stressful, and good water plays a big role in the healing process.

While in the hosptial tank, our priorities are:
1. Get the eyes open
2. Offer nutritional support once the eyes are open. Worms are often the best choice here- small, soft, easy to eat. They can also be gut loaded with vitamins and calcium powder.
3. Force feeding is a last resort. Most reptiles that get force fed never really recover. If you do force feeding, try an organic liver baby food mixed with the needed vitamins and calcium.
4. Try the fish medicine 'Stress Coat'. It is a useful water treatment in some cases like this.


Part of your concerns might be a misunderstanding of chelonian herpesvirus. This is not a widely talked about condition- most of the Internet references to it are in association with Green Sea Turtle culture and rescue. A few articles about herpesvirus and tortoises can also be found- but it is rarely mentioned in reference to sliders and other water turtles.

This link mentions it a little, and describes, briefly, what to look for and this is what I suspect your vet may have used to make his diagnisis. http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171413.htm

Neither the veterinary profession nor professional keepers and breeders have a lot of experience with Herpesvirus yet- it seems to have been around for a long time, but only fairly recently isolated for what it is. Right now some sea turtles and tortoises can be helped- if not really cured- but there is little hope for small turtles.

We think it is triggered or worsened by things like stress, overcrowding, poor temperature controls, etc. It does not seem to affect humans or other mammals.

This is about the same thing we would say about many forms of pneumonia and Respiratory Infections, and there is some thought that they are all related- that the more resistant forms of these may actually be herpesvirus.

I'm sorry, but other than the generic 'sick turtle' care, I have no magic answer that your vet would not have already suggested.


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: thanks for your last reply
it was helpful
it gave me some hope

here is what happened
after applying the cod liver oil for about a day or 2
she started opening her eyes for some time of the day
then later she nearly was awake all day
-so THAT WAS 1 IMPROVEMENT
BUT there was something about her eyes which wasnt normal
the color:before it was greenish but it is now white
wish you can tell me about that
but i was satisfied by that anyway
(she nearly didnt open them for the last month)

ABOUT EATING i introduced worms(she loved them)
she started eating slowly(she hadnt eaten in a month)
then started eating faster but exclusively worms(dried worms)
then she started to move better as she ate more
-that's the 2nd improvement

the gasping was the same or increased
the softening of the shell increases
i got cuttlefish bone but she wouldnt eat them(the soft parts)

I then started putting some drops of cod liver oil and some calcium carbonate powder over the worms

but i stopped putting the eye drops(i dont know if i should still do)

about the calcium i guess they get washed out in the water
(dont get eaten)
but i guess she takes the oil
yESTERDAY HER 1 OF HER EYES CLOSED AND WAS SWOLLEN AND TODAY THE OTHER 1 WAS CLOSED


MY QUESTIONS ARE
1- WAS THAT AN IMPROVEMENT?
2-WHAT CAN I DO FOR CALCIUM?
3-WHY DO YOU THINK SHE CLOSED HER EYES AGAIN?SHALL I USE THE COD LIVER OIL AS EYEDROPS AGAIN??FOR HOW LONG??
SHALL I STOP USING THEM WITH FOOD??
4-WHEN SHE OPENED HER EYES THEY WERE WHITE (other than the pupil)IS THIS A SIGN OF INFECTION OR SOMETHING???
5-IF THERE IS ANYTHING ELSE I CAN DO??


i know i bother you a lot
i am sorry for that
hope you can help me
waiting for your reply

Answer
White under the eye is a bad sign- the cod liver oil helps loosen and lubricate the eyes, so they open and can see to hunt- but it does not really cure most problems- like whatever made the eye go white.

Sprinkling vitamins and supplements on the food will not help- which is why we use live worms and 'gut load' them- feed them the vitamin and calcium powders, so they are super-nutritious. Dried worms are not usually a good choice anyway- most of the nutrients are removed in processing.

Is it living in a good home yet, with lots of clean, warm water and good UVB lighting? If you want to avoid the vet, the only real answer I have is to make sure the housing, diet, and daily cares are right, as described in any of the sites I have already listed.

You can also try http://www.turtleforum.com and see if the good folk there can help any further.

Good luck!