How should i react?

Question
QUESTION: Hi,
I don't own a horse myself. I go to a small riding school which has 5 horses. I'm 22 and only have been around horses and riding for the past three years. I love animals and i know they have their own way of communicating, but only having three years experience i also find myself a little clueless sometimes as to what the horses behaviour means and what i should do about it. When i should be firm, and when getting angry will only make things worse.
I'm getting pretty used to the 2 horses i usually ride, in the saddle and in the stable, but the instructor recently bought a new horse and i'm not quite sure how to handle her.
Let me point out first of all that the stables horses are all very strong willed, with two polo ponies, one of whom only the intsructor rides because she's too much to handle, a 24 year old welsh cob, a 10 year old ex-flat race horse, and the newest is a chestnut 5 year old ex-flat race horse.
My issue is that the newest horse is quite cheeky, and testing her boundaries, what she can get away with and with who. My instructor has established fairly clearly that she's the boss, but i'm a little afraid of her in the stables because she's quite dominant and aggressive, especially with the other horses. We have to close her stall window when the other horses are passing or she'll try bite them.
My question is this: when i pass her stall, esecially if i watch her, she often puts back her ears, swings her head and sometimes bites at the bars. She doesn't do it when i'm in the stall, but she doesn't like me hanging around. Should i ignore this behaviour? Or am i accepting it and being submissive by ignoring it?
When she does other little things like invading my space and pushing me out of the way when i'm brushing her in the box, should i ignore that too?

Thanks

ANSWER:        Hi Lisa,
    I think that I should begin with your last 2 questions. I don't have a method for altering how horses behave towards one another, and I imagine that it would be very difficult to come up with one. The issue of how she behaves towards you is an entirely different question. I don't consider invading your space, and pushing you out of the way a "little" matter. If you want to have a continuing involvement with horses on into the future, I would suggest that try to learn as much as possible on this subject.
    Very many people dealing with horses have no idea that "dominance" and "submission" enter the picture at all, so they struggle for years, trying to manage very unsatisfactory situations. You, on the other hand, are aware a least that these are "issues". I would love to explain the whole thing to you, but it is unfortunately too broad a subject, so I am going to have to try an edited version. One of the main principles in training horses is "pressure and release". The pressure can be physical, or psychological. Now unfortunately there are 2 versions of this, depending on whether you are trying to "sensitise" or "desensitise" your animal. The former is the one you need at the moment(incidentally the second is achieved by behaving in almost exactly the opposite way to the first). The way to proceed is to apply a fairly mild irritant (the pressure) to the horse. Usually the animal will ignore the stimulus initially, then try to resist, but if that doesnt get rid of it, then they normally try yielding to it. When this happens you are well on the road to success, BUT it is absolutely VITAL that you remove the pressure, since you are trying to convince the animal that yielding is it's route to relief. However, because of the way the horse's logic works, it is possible to repeat the whole process after a short break (10secs is plenty).
    There are different ways to apply this pressure, but in you case I would use a bit of a stick approx. 25cms. long by approx. 5cms. in diameter. I would draw myself up to my full height, make myself as broad as possible, then press the end of the stick into the animal's chest or shoulder or girth area, depending on which way I wanted the horse to move. I would use this method to teach her to yield "her" space to me, and hopefully, it would be possible to dispense with the stick after a short while, and simply use the "body language" to achieve the same result. I suppose one of the questions that arises is the amount of pressure to use. The answer is to rely more on patience than on strenght, so start off with a "fairly" light pressure, but if it becomes obvious that she has no intention of yielding then you could bring the pressure up slightly. The whole thing is largely a matter of experimentation.
    You also raised the question of when you should be firm, and also the matter of anger. Please try to keep anger out of the picture. It is possible to have a wonderful relationship with the vast majority of the horses you encounter, if you learn to understand their motivation, and anger would just form a barrier, and destroy that possibility. In any case anger simply does not get results ( just so you know I am not a "bleeding heart", my main interest is in things that work, and those that don't). I'm not sure how to answer in relation to firmness. I suppose the easy answer is to say that you should be firm all the time, yet I feel that could give the wrong impression. Perhaps a better answer would be to say to be firm as long as you think it would make sense in their world, rather than the "human" world.
    I hope some of this at least, makes sense to you, and I would welcome your thoughts on it.
    Meanwhile "Best of luck"
         Slan,
         Brendan      
         

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi,

Thank you, your answer gave me a lot to think about. I suppose in the end some insights can only come through experience and getting to know the animal.
Being frim/angry/patient is an issue i'm having trouble dealing with mainly because i hesitate when i think i'm doing somehting wrong without realizing. My instructor considers me a bit of a softy and tells me to put my foot down more ofte, which is probably true, i do hesitate sometimes because i'm not sure if i'm the problem. But at other times i know that she can be too forceful with them if she's on a tight schedule. Don't get me wrong, she's not mean and is brilliant with the horses, but she's definately not afraid of bringing out the whip and putting them in their place when they really start playing up.

Actually i'd like to clarify what i meant by being angry as opposed to being firm. For example Sam, one of horses i ride regularly, a polo pony, has a sensitive mouth. When putting on the bridle sometimes she takes it without a problem, but sometimes, especially in the beggining (when i first started learning to tack her up) she'd do her best to out smart me, lifting her head out of my reach, swinging her head up suddenly (trying to frighten me to think she was going to panic - My instructor said its something she does to most beginners to frighten them).
Now i'm a short person to begin with and with a 16 hand horse lifting her head up into the air when i'm already using all my concentration trying to remember how the bridle goes on means in the beggining i would often have to call in back up and let the instructor do it. my instructor was tall enough to reach her ears even with her head in the air so she just carried on tacking her up. However when Sam is in a really bad mood and doesn't want to be tacked up then my instructor eventually gives her a smack on the cheek and warns her verbally that she's not going to stand for it. After which Sam behaves.

As for myself, thats something i never had the heart to do. Once i got used to getting the bridle on i started managing even if i was stretched up on my tip toes. And when she moves or spins away i just followed her and stood next to her until she stood still and brought her head down again. Eventually she gave up and stands quite still, though i still end up "reaching for the stars" (as my instructor calls it).

In this case i felt that persistence, not giving it and remaining firm, payed over force, and though she still does it to me i can manage it and she knows it.

But in other cases i'm not so sure. With Sam again, she doesn't like having her girth done. She warns and snaps her teeth and swings her head round to bite. Otherwise she's a complete sweety, but when i'm putting on her saddle and tightening her girth i don't go anywhere near her head.
My instructor tells me to ignore it, as she does. Sam snaps and fusses all she wants and she completely ignores her.
But i just don't have the nerve to do that. A couple of times she has actually bitten my instructor when she thought she could get away with it, (which of course she didn't).
In the beggining i would jump back the minute she moved her head. Of course i couldn't tack her up like that so i had to get over the skittishness to some extent.
What i do now is bascially talk to her and praise her while i'm doing it, and give her verbal warnings when she starts flattening her ears. Also i never give my back to her. I'd rather watch her head than what my hands are doing, because the minute she think's you have your guard down she's going to try it. It works to some extent, mainly i think because she knows i'm watching her, but when she does spin her head round to snap at me i can't bring myself to ignore it because she'll just do it again. So i give her a smack on the shoulder with my palm and giver her a verbal reprimand. It still really stresses my out to saddle her.

Also, what do you think it means when the new horse, the one i spoke about before, flattens her ears and bites and the bars if i linger in front of her box? Is she just being territorial over her space?

Also, i thought i might mention that though i have very little experience with horses, i have experiece with other animals, and we've had dogs in the house since i was two years old so in understand that there are dominance and submission issues in every relationship. i'm just learing what those are in the equine world :)

Thank you for your long replies. I know most things can only really come with experince but i'm grateful for any little insight and piece of advice i can get. I plan on getting a horse sometime in the next few years when i graduate and have a settled job, and the more i can learn before that the better for me and the better for my horse :)

ANSWER:        Hi Lisa,
    After reading your reply, I feel pretty sure that your instructor belongs to, what I would call "the old school". I myself operated that way for many years, but the results I got were "patchy" at best. Then bit by bit, I discovered a new and better way, and the results were hugely improved ( sometimes breathtakingly so).
    I feel that you have got a glimpse into this other world, and that you are never going to be really happy with the old (nor should you be). I cannot teach you all you need to know here, but I may be able to show you certain paths through the forests of ignorance, and it will be up to you to explore them 'til you find yourself in that "clearing", where you will be able to have, at least, an understanding with practically every animal you meet, and in many cases go far beyond that. Sorry, I didn't intend that to come out as "preachy" as it did.
    The first thing that I think you should do is to try and see everything through the eyes of the horse. In the case of Sam, I suspect that she has learned, firstly, to "suss out" when she is being handled by a beginner, and secondly, that being bridled up by such a person is generally an unpleasant experience, so she simply tries to avoid it. I very much doubt that she is trying to scare anyone. Please bear in mind that I can be wrong too. I am simply trying to portray the MOST  likely scenario. In my view hitting an animal in this case is not the correct response. The right way to proceed is through retraining. Unfortunately in your present case, that is complicated by the fact that you don't own her, and have no control over what way others interact with her, but it is something to bear in mind for when you have your own horse. Perhaps this would be a good time to suggest that you read an answer I sent to "Alice" round about last Christmas(another version of the pressure and release theme). Incidentally I should say, that your last mail also shows that you have already learned the value of the more patient, persistent approach, as opposed to the "do it now" attitude.
    With regard to the girthing I think that it is very similar to the issue with the bridling(i.e. she has had bad experiences in the past).The way you are dealing with it at the moment is broadly in line with what I would do, although I might take a slightly stronger line if I felt that the situation required it. I could expand on that last statement if you want me to.
    This whole question of "dominance and submission" places quite a bit of responsibility on your shoulders. If they submit to you, then you become (to a large extent), responsible for their safety, and wellbeing, and if you fail in that duty, then the trust that is central to that type of relationship may be lost, and could be difficult to recover.
    As regards the new animal you may very well be right. The top animal can be territorial   
over any space it chooses, whereas the bottom animal is not entitled to be protective over any space. It would appear that this one is telling you (and nearly everone else)that she is "top dog", and that all others should get out of her way.
    I am sorry Lisa, but I am afraid that I am going to have to finish up now, as it is getting very late here. However I would just like to say in conclusion, that I think that your feet are firmly planted on what I would consider the right road, and  all you need is a bit of practice in thinking like a horse, and the addition of a few little techniques here and there. Please get back to me if you would like take the discussion further, or if you have any more questions.
     In the meantime "best of luck",
         Slan,
         Brendan          

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi,
Thank you very much for taking the time to write such long replies. I'm sorry if i seem to be rambling on from one issue to another without really even formulating any concrete questions :/ I suppose i'm venting 3 years of pent up issues and questions and fishing for every bit of knowledge i can. Honestly, if i'm inconveniencing you tell me. If you have a lot of other qustions to answer and i'm just filling your email tell me. It won't put me off asking you help when i have a specific issue i need to deal with :)

That being said could you expand on what you meant by taking a stronger line when it comes to the girthing. If you can help me figure out a way to work through it that would be fantastic, because as i said before it really stresses me out and upsets me.

Also what you said about Sam made a lot of sense to me, about her having had a bag experience with beginners! In fact i think you may be spot on. I say this from my experience of taking the bridle off.
If you take too long taking her bridle off and she feels it "get stuck", ie you've started taking it off and she's expecting to drop the bit but finds she can't she panics and throws her head in the air.
In the beginning, when my instructor was the one untacking her and i was just watching Sam gave us no problems. WHen i did it for the first time wth the instructor with me she gave me no problems. When i did it on my own for the first time she gave me no problem. However after that if i took more than a few seconds to get it off her head, she'd lift and then she wouldn't give me a second chance. This went on for almost a year until she was comfortable enough that i could get it off quickly. And the more she got used to me getting it off and not messing up the more relaxed she got and the more time even she gives me to take it off her.

Its the same with her feet. SHe was really sensitive in the beginning and would wait a short while and then snatch her foot out of your hand. and once she does that twice you can forget her picking it off the floor again. I used to joke in my head that she had made time limits for me for each task, and i had to complete them before she said "time up". So, i had to work faster and get things done without fussing.
Now she's fine with that too. She has some days where she doesn't want to pick them up at first but she gives in pretty quickly. And she even let me do her feet when she was on the halter and clipped on both sides, which my instructor said she can be a bit panicky about.  

So i'm pretty sure you're right about the beginners and now she trusts that i know what i'm doing.

Again i'd like to thank you for taking the time to reply.

Lisa :)

Answer
      Hi Lisa,
    Sorry for the delay in replying. I was actually half way through an answer last night, but in the end I let it go as I felt that I was not communication my idea clearly enough. I was also searching around for a piece of equipment, which I feel sure is available somewhere, which would make dealing with your girthing issue much easier.
    I hope you won't mind if this is merely a sort of "holding" reply ( just so you know I am not sleeping on the job). I am under a small bit of pressure at the moment, but I assure you it is small and should clear quickly, and I wouldn't want it to deter you from asking further questions. In actual fact I would prefer to deal with a small number of people, who are interested in approaching the horse /human relationship from the same direction as me, rather than answering many questions from others, some of whom who are stuck in the "traditional" ways.
    I don't know if this site puts a limit on the number of times you can revert to me, but if you need it here is my e-mail address; breandanobraonain@gmail.com
    I hope to have something better for you within a day or two.
    Meanwhile I'll wish you luck,
         Slan,
         Brendan