mouse eating poo (cophragia) (last Q)

Question
QUESTION: Hi Natasha, is me again and this time i need your help. I got 2 female mice and one of them got the tumor is a lumps all lumpy one of her abdominal side. I pick her up today for change the cage and i see her walking strange with a lump under leg . I don t don t what to do because my boyfriend told don t take her to the vet because he know what they do, usually they will put her sleep. I don t want to do, her suffer and i don t want see her in pain. So i was thinking to writing to you for help if u can. Do i need take her to the vet for surgery or give something for the pain and leave her like that ,which that lump can grow more. Last week i don t see nothing one her, so must be grown in this week, but  is all ready  big enough. Can you help, please? P.S. I am in uk and antibiotic here on 'pets at home' i never find it.  thank u.    Rosalba.

ANSWER: Dear Rosalba,

The vet can tell you if the lump is a tumor or an abscess. If it grew very fast-- like overnight-- it is likely to be an abscess, which the vet can lance and drain and then give her the right antibiotic. There is little reason why she wouldn't be OK.  

A tumor is worse though. If mice get operations on their tumors usually the tumor comes back very soon. Usually the only thing to do is let it grow and keep her comfortable. It is OK if she doesn't look good as long as she is happy. But if she seems to be in pain or can no longer move around or eat or drink, she needs to be put to sleep.

There are various herbs that people use to try to fight tumors, including goji berries together with pau d'arco. Another remedy is shark cartilage. The mouse would probably eat the goji berries dry, and you would want to mix 1/4 capsule of pau d'arco, and/or the shark cartilage, in butter and give it to her once a day. I don't have solid evidence that this works but I am doing it for my pet rat right now.  

In any case the vet should diagnose the lump because if it is an abscess, it needs the proper treatment.

I hope she is Ok,

squeaks,

Natasha

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: hi Natasha, thank  you for answer me back. I take her to the pets hospital which is free here for people in benefit. So the female Vet told me is a tumor and the mice like others pets don t suffer for pain"she told me".  My mice eating normally for now and  at the moment she look ok. She walk little bit strange because of that lumps and is a mammary tumor . The vet said is not good put her sleep now because she look ok, but if in two week i see her not eating like you said i call then and put her sleep. The vet don t mention about antibiotic , but i can tell you i don t trust much that pets vet they look like they don t wont do they job. I trust more you. I will try what you said about berries with pou d'arco and i will let you know if works. THANKS A LOT, bye for know.   

         Rosalba.

ANSWER: Dear Rosalba,

Thank you so much for keeping me posted.  I appreciate that. It is simply wonderful that you have a free vet. Since it has been diagnosed as a tumor, antibiotics would not help.

You are doing exactly the right thing. Let her be funny-looking; but watch her to see if her quality of life worsens. Mice can sometimes live quite some time perfectly happily with a large tumor.

My rat is getting a mix of goji berries, shark cartilage, pau d'arco, and AHCC, mixed in soy yogurt. He loves it. And his fast growing tumor has completely stopped growing. If you want to add the AHCC give 1/8 capsule rather than 1/4. The mouse may eat the goji berries dry, but if not, what I am doing for my boy Doodle is soaking them in water and then pureeing them (actually mincing them but the result is the same, it's just slower). They go bad fast, though. You can't prepare any more than 4 days at once, and you must refrigerate it. Since I am giving Doodle about 1 tsp of the puree twice a day, I would recommend 1/4 tsp once a day. I have decided to divide by 8 even though your mouse is probably 1/10 the weight of my rat. If you want to do a little less, that's fine.

I want to remind you that I don't have medical training, and while your vet wouldn't know about these treatments, I know very little about them either. I collected information from several sources and decided to put it all together. I have no idea which ingredient/s work and which don't. What I have specifically read about mice is the goji with pau d'arco can reduce tumors, but again it was not a scientific source, but someone who breeds mice.

Best of luck. Let me know what happens, since I would like to recommend these treatments to others if they work. I certainly hope you can stop or even shrink the tumor.

squeaks,

Natasha




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Natasha , thanks again for reply me. The goji berries and  shark cartilage and pau d'arco here i can t find it, i don t know where find them, If i can find i  will give my mice, but the problem i never can't find nothing here. I want ask you something else..  yesterday i see  my mice going in her toilet and after, she is eating her poo, what means ? she never eat that before. She is with her sister in her cage,which is good. The tumor is growing and i don' t know what to do at the moment, I will let you know what happen. Thank you again, bye for now.      
         
   Rosalba.

Answer
Dear Rosalba,

I am sorry you can't find the supplements. I had to order them online. It is not cheap, especially if you want to get them quickly. But I have always  let my mouse tumors grow until the mouse is unhappy. Mice don't mind having tumors. Hopefully she has a while yet to go as a happy mouse.

Mice, like rabbits and rats, have a kind of poo called cecotropes, which they do eat. This behavior is called cophragia. It is a different kind of poo than the usual, and it has nutrients in it that the mice actually need. It is rare that you see the mouse do it-- they are pretty subtle about it.

If the mouse is eating the normal dark dryish poops that are lying in the cage after they have been left there, that is not normal. Maybe there just happened to be nutrients in it that she needed. If she continues, that is unusual but there is certainly nothing you can do about it. In any case, it is not going to make her sick. Your cage is clean enough that there should be no harmful organisms in the poop.

Squeaks,

Natasha