Macie, Green slim poop with new food

Question
Hi Jackie
I had recently asked you some questions about stello, one of my ferrets who has ibd and insulinoma. I really appreciate this service considering vets typically (in my experience)dont talk so frankly or honestly for what ever reason. Also it cost $68 to just bring one in and ask the questions. ( cheaper vets around, but I like the one I go to because they are reputable and there are a few ferret owners there)
I really appreciate the help!

I have a question now about one of my other ferrets Macie.
Macie we got the same place as stello, at the same time. unfortunately where we got them they werent cared for properly. the conditions they lived in were poor. water bottles had green gook inside of them and poops where all over the place.
over the 3 years that we've had Macie she has vomitted a hand full of times ( more so in the beginning ) also in the beginning maybe the first 6 months she would have bouts of some green poop (green slim) but that all stopped. though she has continued to have some seedy poop like her brother stello.
The vet and I assumed Macie had IBD like her brother becuase of the similar symptoms. we only knew stello had ibd because of a surgery for a 'possible impaction' but it ended up being a swollen lymph node (removed and tested) because of the ibd. I was not about to do an exploritory surgery on Macie just to confirm ibd. (so we just changed up the diet to a chicken free food, and watch her and her brother closely)

now, macie, since she started eating hills zd she vomitted the the food back up once, after the first rime eating it. however, ever since we've been integrated hills zd ( which is another allergy free formula)( reason being stello started vomitting on the other formula) she has gotten 'bouts' of green slim poop.
It started with foamy..maybe gasy looking poop and it went from that to goopy/gooey poop to seedy, to solid, to green slim. So the last few poops shes done with the exception of 1 has been green slim.
so one, the new food obviously has done something. and not in a good way, which, at least to me, says its not ibd.
one other thing to add is occasionally she does the most smelliest farts! i only noticed because I picked her up to put her in her 'house' kissed her, and almost vomitted! since then ( about a year ago), i check her when she sleeps to see if shes gasy. she doesnt seem to be lately.
I intend to switch her back to the food she had been on, however it seems to me like something is up.

from things ive read gasy foamy poop is a sign of bacterial infection and green slim = ece. any ideas for me?? like what these things could possibly mean?
and why the sudden change in poop to green slim because of the new diet
i do intend to take her and my other ferret fiona to the vet. I need to wait a few weeks though until we have enough money. I want macie to have her poop checked for an infection and for them to have their blood glucose levels checked, as well as i heard you can have their blood checked for heightened levels of adrenal hormones (suggesting adrenal disease)
My girls have no obvious symptoms, though after everything thats been going on with stello ive done my fair share of research and suspect early warning signs of something.

(fiona, since we've had her, we nick named space cadet.. she will pause, tilt her head, and stare off, then come back to us.) (signs of insulinoma, so ive read)

Macie occasionally, once in a blue moon, will do the flattening out. So i just want them checked to be sure. I also noticed that, i believe its the vulva, where the pee comes out of, is about as big as her brothers...but she is a girl...Can you please tell me, how big is an enlarged vulva??? I tried to find pictures online, i found one but it was a link to a ferret with an enlarged rectum. what would be considered a swollen vulva??????

one other question, I apologize for this being so long and in depth..

IF something is wrong with either one, (insulinoma, adrenal disease.. ) I intend to do the surgeries as long as everything else is healthy and they can with stand it.

my concern, a very big concern, is surgery with Macie.
Macie has always been very sketchy. she gets scared and nervous easily. She does not like new people or new places until she gets comfortable, which can take some time.(shes been like this since day 1)
Im concerned that because she is like this surgery may be too stressful for her. I dont know if she'll need it or not, i have wishful thinking of course, but it's a possibility.

I'm wondering if you've ever had or known of a ferret who is very nervous/anxious/sketch like this and did ok with surgery?

An update on stello, He's doing a lot better!! :)
the prednisone took about 2 doses before I noticed a major change. Today is day 6 of him being on it. When he's up, hes a mad man. He is fiesty, spunky, into everything! plays anywhere from 30-60 minutes a couple times a day. He randomly started eating his hills zd food (which he hated), along with his turkey puree and for the first time in a long time has nice solid poops, though, they are a bit gooy in consistancy if you poke it with a q-tip.
Yes I q-tip my ferrets poops all the time!
I do it to check to see if there are hair balls, anything foreign, wierd colors, anything.
Stello, a couple times now, will have little colored tan parts to his poop. (curious to know what that is..cant seem to find anything about it on the internet) ( it started with the prednisone)

He does still have some slow periods, sometimes he will flatten out just for 10 seconds, other times he goes under the chair or something and lays there for a bit, 5 minutes or so, then comes back out for more play. once or twice he doesnt come out, I get him, put him in bed and he falls asleep. I imagine he still has some discomfort sometimes but for the most part he plays and seems happy.

we did go back to the vet and his blood glucose was still low, only 55. i have no idea how he is this crazy with a blood glucose level that low. He hasnt been having any signs of nausea or weakened hind legs. the vet said if his blood glucose is still low she wants to raise the prednisone. Im concerned with this. and asked some questions to one of the other experts, cindy, i believe. Your questions had been maxed out. I asked about prednisone, dosing and its long term effects and what is considerd 'long term'.

I still have stello seperated from the girls, he was originally because of his mast cell removal but now because of his blood glucose. Im so worried something is going to happen in the middle of the night that I feel better knowing he's close and I can help if need be. He does seem like he doesnt trust his stength sometimes as well. (hesitation, (only occasionally) with jumping over things )and Im worried about putting him back in his 3 level ferret nation home in fear one night he'll be weak and somehow hurt himself.

when do you think an acceptable time to return him to his home would be?? He really doesnt seem to mind that hes not there, the girls seem fine as well. He actually seems a little less restless being seperate. no one is there to bother him, and there isnt a lot going on. they do love to see each other though. He goes right to sniffing bums and the girls go right to grooming him!
thank you thank you thank you, seriously, for your responses! they are much appreciated!!!
Robin  

Answer
Hi Robin:

Glad to hear the pred is helping. Sounds like a little higher dosage might be a good idea to get that blood glucose up  at least into the 80's and stop the spells of staring, etc. It's quite common to have to increase the dosage in the beginning to establish, then again as time goes on to increase them again over time, so just check with the vet to be sure before you change it - you don't want to get it too high because it is hard on his other organs, but you don't want him to go into seizures either and low blood sugar is hard on all his organs, in addition to being hard on your heart (enough to give you a heart attack if you ever see him have a full on seizure!)

Next:  You asked about several tests you talked about getting. One that struct me was the Tennessee Panel - the test for adrenal disease. This test is expensive and basic useless. It is only accurate about 50% of the time. Observation of symptoms is a lot better indication of adrenal disease.  You asked about swollen vulva. In females the vulva is directly in front of the anus, so it's hard, especially if they are swollen, to distinguish where one starts and the other begins unless you know what you're looking at.....it's not an inch or so forward like a little penis is. A swollen vulva could well have looked like a swollen anus in the picture you were looking at. That's one of the ways we can tell if a little boy or little girl did a pee/poop - a little boy's pee will be a couple inches in front of his poop; whereas a little girl's pee will fall directly on her poop. Once an owner knows that, it can help keep the wrong ferret from getting punished for potty mistakes! LOL  Anyway, hopefully that explains the picture you saw and helps describe any future picture you might get a chance to see.  An UNenlarged vulva simply looks like a tiny opening in front of the anus, you have to look for it; it doesn't stick up like a little penis does on the boys; boys actually have a little penis "bone" in their penis which keeps it obvious in addition to the extra skin.  

Best way to know if a ferret has adrenal disease:  fur loss, either at the base of the tail (most common) and spreads up the body; OR can start anywhere on the body and spread randomly. Female ferret vulva will swell and appear pinker than usual; males may stand in the litterbox longer than usual (straining) to pee - this is dangerous because it means the prostate gland has swollen so much that is impeding the urinary tract (can be life-threatening and if the ferret cannot pee, he MUST have bladder emptied by a vet with a syringe/needle until emergency surgery can be performed or bladder can rupture and ferret dies). Ferrets also usually get more ornery and/or mean towards each other. They will bite harder, chase down other ferrets  incessantly and just overall raise hell because their hormones are out of whack and they feel mean and want to hurt something. They can't be held responsible for this behavior and should not be punished for it, rather surgery should be sought for them.

Different colors in poop:  can be caused by many things. Do you feed one food that is one solid color? How about treats? Any colors there? Lighter or darker foods/treats ever given?  Otherwise it CAN be mucous or even pus from an intestinal infection; usually caused by a blockage of some kind.  I ALWAYS recommend a good cleaning out by my "soup and vetasyl" recipe. If you haven't seen it before, I will put it here, along with the story behind it:


HAIRBALL TREATMENT:

I have a ferret who had to have surgery for a hairball last year. I have had this ferret since he was a tiny kit and my house is very ferretproofed, neat and tidy, and I watch the kids closely when they are out to play.  He started having skinny poops and I was ready to take him to the vet...but a friend of mine has cats recommended that I try a product called "Vetasyl".

VETASYL:   http://www1.shopping.com/xFS?KW=vetasyl&CLT=SCH
UNCLE JIM'S DUK SOUP MIX: http://www1.shopping.com/xFS?KW=Uncle+Jim%27s+Duk+Soup+Mix&CLT=SCH

Vetasyl is a safe bulk product made of psyllium and barley that absorbs liquids as it travels thru the digestive system and works like Metamucil works for people.  I gave him the CONTENTS OF ONE VETASYL CAPSULE (toss the cap itself away) blended into 6-OZ OF VERY WARM WATER and TWO LEVEL TEASPOONS of Uncle Jim's Duk Soup Mix (by Marshalls and available at pet stores or online pet supply stores).  I let him eat all he wanted...and he ate all 6 oz of it!

I repeated this and fed him 'lax soup' ONCE A DAY FOR THREE DAYS IN A ROW.  The first two days he passed a few small hairballs here and there, not enough to explain the tiny poops I had been seeing.  However, on the third day I gave the lax, he passed a hairball the size and shape of my little finger!!  It had some green pus on one end of it, so no doubt he was very very close to having a very very serious problem - but it was averted!  

Since then, I have been giving the 'soup lax' treatment about once every two weeks. I make up the soup at bedtime and he goes to bed with a tummy full of warm soup.  By morning when I check the litterbox, I often find little hairballs that he has passed in his poops.  The first time, for the initial 'clean-out', give it for three days in a row to be sure everything is out, but subsequent treatments can be just one feeding of the 'soup' every couple of weeks.  

My large male ferret eats the whole 6 oz of soup. Smaller ferrets may eat less, but they should eat at least 1/2 of the mixture in order to be effective. The secret is in giving it with enough fluids so that it can swell up in the intestines and move whatever it finds in its path out.  You can get your ferret familiar with Uncle Jim's Duk Soup - it's a treat to my kids - they LOVE it and if you use 2 level teaspoons in 6-oz of warm water and the contents of one Vetasyl capsule, the proportions are just about perfect!  Initially you may have to dip your finger in it, then into their mouth until they develop a taste for it and eat it readily.  I haven't seen a ferret yet who doesn't love Uncle Jim's, so it is perfect for this....and MUCH healthier for our ferrets than the sugary vaseline laxatives we have given for years (and they don't work as well as Vetasyl!).

UPDATED (best) VETASYL/UNCLE JIM'S BLURB:
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My best gut feeling is always to treat for obstruction since the treatment is so easy and so very effective.  I don't trust the goopy petroleum-based cat hairball laxatives in the tubes; I've never in all my ferret-owning years seen even one of my kids pass a hairball after being given even huge doses of that stuff!  I treated them faithfully every single weekend for years and yet had a ferret with a hairball (he groomed himself a lot) who ended up with a hairball - AND, then while he was recovering and I was trying to figure out how he got a hairball while I had been giving the petroleum-based goopy gunk religiously, I discovered Vetasyl and mixed it with Uncle Jim's Duk Soup Mix (recipe and instructions to follow) and here we were about one month after surgery and he passed another HUGE hairball about the size and shape of my little finger - AND it had a bunch of green pus (I know, waaaay too much information LOL, but we have to know to watch for these things) on one end of it, meaning it was in the process of becoming very very infected. BAD news for my ferret - but this Vetasyl alnd Uncle Jim's mix saved his life - literally.

So, now I give him Vetasyl and Uncle Jim's every week come rain or shine; when he's shedding or I think he may have gotten ahold of anything he shouldn't have, he gets a 3-day or 5-day treatment to be SURE whatever it is passes through quickly and harmlessly.  I believe every ferret owner should keep this stuff on hand and use it at least weekly.  Even tho their ferret may not LOVE it the first time they eat it - ferrets rarely love anything the first time they are introduced to it. We have to keep letting them taste it - sometimes several times a day, until they get used to the new flavor. My large male ferret BEGS for his 'soup' and will sit and watch while I prepare it and slurp down every drop of it just as often as I will make it for him - that's the goal we hope to get every ferret to love it that much! The trick is to start them slow, let them lick it from your fingers at first until they get used to it; then maybe a spoon. Be ready to have some spit out - have paper towels ready. That's not unusual.  Within a week or two, I promise, your ferret WILL adapt and love their 'soup'.   The BONUS is that when your ferret is sick, Uncle Jim's can also be made without the Vetasyl and given to a ferret to either help get fluids down a ferret who needs extra fluids, or mix it a bit thicker for a ferret who isn't eating his kibble well and needs to get some nutrition down.

WHERE TO GET VETASYL AND UNCLE JIM'S (check here for best prices):

VETASYL:   http://www1.shopping.com/xFS?KW=vetasyl&CLT=SCH

UNCLE JIM'S DUK SOUP MIX: http://www1.shopping.com/xFS?KW=Uncle+Jim%27s+Duk+Soup+Mix&CLT=SCH

WHAT DO I DO WITH IT WHEN IT GETS HERE?

BEFORE STARTING, mix the "soup":
Use the CONTENTS OF ONE VETASYL CAPSULE (toss the cap itself away) blended into 6-OZ OF VERY WARM WATER and TWO LEVEL TEASPOONS of Uncle Jim's Duk Soup Mix.  Make sure the mixture is WARM when you feed it to your ferret.  

PREPARE THE AREA (this is just for the first few times to introduce them to it):
Have a couple paper towels (for any food that is spit or spilled); a spoon, the warm "soup", a really good attitude, quiet unrushed atmosphere, and A WARM WET WASHCLOTH.

SIT IN A COMFORTABLE, RELAXING ATMOSPHERE, HOLDING THE FERRET ON YOUR LAP:
Talk to him for a minute, reassure him it's okay. Look at the ferret in the eyes, stroke his face. Gently but firmly SCRUFF the ferret firmly just below the ears with your left hand let his back feet rest on your lap. Use your right hand to gently wipe his face with the WARM washcloth, working from his nose back to his ears, all the while talking to him, working your way all the way around his little face and neck.  This is all done in a gentle, loving way, soft tone of voice, even sing a lullabye if you wish.  This activity helps relax the ferret lets him know you want to (scruff) be in charge; and (warm washcloth gently stroking facial fur back - grooming) helps him become submissive.

Next, (you will need to re-grasp your scruff from time to time until he gets used to this enough that he will eat it on his own, but for now, continue to scruff him) dip your finger into the "soup" (be sure it's still warm) and touch it to your ferret's mouth (be ready for him/her to  spit - have a paper towel handy).  (**IMPORTANT NOTE:  BE SURE you are holding the ferret UPRIGHT, not laying him backwards like a baby; he will choke - keep his SPINE UPRIGHT and you will do just fine.)  Try again however many times necessary. Each time, take the opportunity to stir the mixture with the finger you are dipping into the mixture.  Continue until the ferret gets a good taste of it several times. Best way is to put a little bit behind the canines (the long teeth) with your fingers so they HAVE to taste it. Usually once they taste it, they will be surprised that they actually like it! :-)  DON'T RUSH THE FERRET - this should be a relaxing time. Once they get a good taste, they will lap it up willingly and it will take very very little time to do this.  You want the ferret to eat as much of the 'soup' as possible - ALL OF IT if it will (my large male ferret will eat nearly a whole six ounces by himself!)  It's just the initial introduction that you have to go thru all this ceremony. My ferrets - I just mix a bowl and put it on the floor and they come running and empty the bowl. :-)   

This IS a product that 99.99999% of ferrets love, so please don't give up - keep offering it; keep the atmosphere light, sing to your ferret; make this a happy time, not a tense time and that will help. Your ferret will enjoy this time if you make it a routine by doing it the same way each time.   WHEN FINISHED - ALWAYS 'RE-SCRUFF', WIPE YOUR FERRETS FACE WITH A WARM, WET WASHCLOTH, STROKING FROM THE FRONT OF THE MOUTH BACK BEYOND THE EARS ALL THE WAY AROUND THE FACE AND NECK.  Again, grooming behaviors that reinforce the message to your ferret "I love you - I am taking care of you".  I think ferrets who get this kind of care really are more mellow and more anxious to please their owners. I do things like this with my own ferrets and don't think to share them, but am going to try to be better about sharing *all* the things we do here at our house that makes it an especially ferret-friendly place to be.

                                               * * * * * *
****ONLY ONE URGENT CAUTION***   You MUST use PLENTY OF WATER when you mix this! STIR WELL - you can even pause while the ferret is eating and stir it again, as the part that expands and does the work does tend to settle in the bottom of the bowl; but you MUST NOT use less water - If you use less water, YOU CAN CAUSE A BLOCKAGE WITH THIS MIXTURE IF USED IMPROPERLY. The product is psyllium and barley (like Metamucil for people) and it expands after ingested, so it NEEDS the water to expand AND to keep it moving along through the
intestinal tract.  DO NOT USE THE DIRECTIONS ON THE LABEL FOR DOGS & CATS (says to just 'sprinkle it on their food' (that would KILL a ferret!) - using this products for ferrets is considered and "off label use", which means you must use it differently for that animal. Ferrets MUST have LOTS of additional water for this product to work as we are using it.
                                              * * * * *  *
 
    REPEAT TREATMENT A MINIMUM OF ONCE A DAY
                FOR THREE DAYS IN A ROW
                     for the initial treatment.

Do watch your ferrets stools while he/she is taking this medication. KEEP anything that is passed in the poop during this time. IF it is part of something, of course you want to be looking for the missing part, to see if it passes also. Check around the house, in his toys, bedding, cage, etc. If you cannot find any missing parts, you must *assume* that he has also swallowed that part, so continue to give the Mixture and watch for that part to be expelled in the stool also.

AFTER the three days of taking the soup every night, you must continue to give the "soup" every night until *no* hair pieces, *no* toy parts, nothing strange comes out in your ferret's poop - then you know your ferret's intestinal tract is clean. For some ferrets, three days is enough, some need four or five or even seven days until everything is out of them!  You must examine your ferret's poops so know when to stop.

EXAMINING THE POOPS:
Place fresh poops on several layers of folded over paper towels and spread poop out with popsicle stick or something similar.  Spread it thin so you can see if there is a little ball of fur, any small fur ball or toy.  It's not unusual to not see anything the first day; sometimes not even the second day, but by the third day, almost everyone sees SOMETHING - I've had some wild reports of interesting things people have found too!  So, please DO check so you know what your ferret is getting into - so you can RE-ferretproof your house AND be sure these items are out of your ferret's reach in the future.  Also, you will know for sure when it is safe to stop your ferret's "soup" treatment.

AFTER THE INITIAL TREATMENT:
I give a 3-day treatment every other weekend to my ferret.  He grooms himself a lot and he has a history of one surgery for hairball removal, which means he has some scar tissue inside his intestines that will especially grab any fur passing through his intestines and be even more likely to get another hairball.  Most "normal" people can probably treat a healthy ferret with ONE 3-DAY TREATMENT ONCE A MONTH - but do watch to see if they are passing anything in the treatments and if they are, extend the treatments to 4 or 5 days if necessary.

DURING SHEDDING TIME:
I give the treatment DAILY during shedding time.  I also "pluck" my ferrets (that's a whole 'nuther story) to remove loose fur, but anybody whose ferret is shedding should be giving them the soup DAILY until they are SURE the shedding is over.

THE PROOF IS IN THE.......er, POOPS!
You will KNOW your ferret has healthy intestines because your ferret will poop big fat poops like he/she did when they were just a kit. Most older ferrets poop small poops because almost every ferret has at least a partial blockage - it's NOT necessary - there IS a cure and it does NOT involve surgery!  A ferret with a clean intestinal tract is a LOT happier, energetic and just all over in better health than one that is getting either no hairball treatment or a petroleum-based goopy laxative, even if they get it on a daily basis - those are SO messy; and they just do NOT work!
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As I've used this mixture over the years, I've gotten less "goosey" about the amount of water I use and have used as little as 4 or 5 ounces of water with a capsule of vetasyl and it's effective; so if you can't get your ferret to eat 8 ounces, go ahead and use less water; he'll be okay and it will clean him out good.

It's a good idea to have a full blood panel done if your ferret isn't feeling well. That will tell your vet a lot. IF you get vaccinations, get only EITHER rabies OR distemper at one visit and the other at the next visit. Both shots MUST BE PRECEDED BY an injection of benedryl to help in case they have an allergic reaction to the shot. One of my ferrets had an allergic reaction and even with the shot, she almost died, so please, only one shot at a time (so you know which one she is allergic to for future use) and always with benadryl about 15 minutes before, then wait at the vet's office for 1/2 hour afterwards to be sure there isn't going to be a reaction.

I think that covers all your questions. If not, please don't hesitate to write again.  Best of luck to your little pred baby - be sure to get with your vet about increasing his dosage asap.  Sounds like you're a good ferret mommy and your kids are in good hands - just keep doing what you're doing!

P.S. all good ferret parents paw thru their ferret's poops LOL - it comes with the territory!! LOL  Really, we can find out more thru their poop than any other single other thing! Any experienced ferret owner will tell you that, so you didn't even gross me out...I use popsicle sticks or Qtips. :-)

Sincerely,

Jacquie Rodgers

ALSO:
I forgot to address the green slimy poops with food change - this is very common and will probably be resolved by just changing the food back or waiting it out to settle down. It could even take a week or so depending on how different the food is than what he was on.  Here's a great list of ferret foods, listed from 10 to 1 , with 10 being the best and 1 being the worst. It's recommended you feed nothing lower than a 9 on the list:

  http://www.mdferretpaws.org/care/food_treats.html

Hopefully you're already feeding something in the "10" category. Or, maybe there is some reason you are feeding "ZD", but ferrets NEED MEAT, which you won't find in ZD basically (I don't believe, but don't have the ingredients list available to me at this time). Iknow it's for serious dietary allergies, which are very very very rare in ferrets and I would encourage you to put the ferret on a pure meat diet and see if that doesn't cure all the intestinal problems. Hill's A/D is EXCELLENT for ferrets - give that one a try?  Just an idea; it's what I use for my kids when they are sick; I use it slightly watered down to make "soup" from. It would be fine for a daily diet also tho, especially for a ferret with intestinal problems. It DOES cause soft stools - goes with the territory - but other than that, I bet the ferret will feel better on it...just an idea :-)  Try a can - how wrong can we go??  Best of luck - let me know how it goes??