Staples - Update

Question
QUESTION: I have an older girl who loves to tear her stiches out.  She had surgery on Wednesday for a mass.  It was successful.  Two full days pass and she pulls them out on Saturday late morning.  There is a gaping whole, not over half an inch long but extremely deep going right into the body.

I had to get staples put in, the good thing is I kept the wound very clean as well as bedding.  It did not look infected, and she acting like she has nothing wrong with her.  My question is how long does it take to heal with the staples in?  Also have you ever had the experience of a rattie tearing out staples!!!  Shes on pain meds and baytril and I have orange bitter on the wound area.

ANSWER: Hi Tony

Yes, I have had clients rats tear them out but not as often as they do the nylon stitches.  What kind of pain meds is she on? Hopefully not just metacam...that stuff is nothing but an NSAID like motrin :(

Here is what I have found out during my years working with rats:

Rat A has a history of ripping her stitches out after surgery. Her vet puts in two sets, one internal, one set external. He makes them nice and tight and clean lines too. He prescribes metacam for pain and refuses to use narcotics to go home on saying if the rat feels "too good" she may over do it and hurt herself.  Rat A is too busy ripping her stitches out to care about anything else.

So.....Rat A goes to another vet, who in turn, stitches her up again using two sets of stitches, only he isnt so worried about perfect clean lines. He makes them much looser but is creative in the way he stitches, again, not worrying about how "pretty" the suture line is. He finishes it with surgical glue and prescribes a narcotic pain medication to go home on and take for the next 3 to 5 days prn. *as needed*

Rat A doesnt touch the stitches this time. SHe eats, grooms everywhere but the incision, and sleeps it off which of course sleeping helps promote healing. SHe is not stressed and heals fast.

Do you see what is going on with the rat and the vets that have two very different techniques?   Vet #1 thinks that if the rat is a bit uncomfortable she wont over do it yet she is SO uncomfortable she rips her stitches out because she feels that the stitches are the culprit and they are, to a degree.  Even if she is on narcotic pain medication, if the stitches are too tight she will still fuss. She wont sleep well and will stress which in turn can delay healing.

Once the rat visits Vet #2 and has stitches done totally different and is given good pain medication to keep her comfortable during the first few days of healing, she does much better, leaves the stitches alone because she is comfortable and doesnt need to mess with anything to feel better. She rests comfortably and heals well since she is not stressed.

Some rats dont care about anything else though other than the fact there is something foreign on their body and they want it off, and this is when staples are used.  However, if this is one of those rats, she may still pick and bother them.  If this occurs, I would ask the vet for loser stitches, surgical glue and some medication that will ease her pain and calm her down just long enough that she isnt stressing.  

How is she now with the staples?

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Its been 25 hours since she received 6 staples.  She does not seem to mind the staples, barely even licking the area and I have been watching intently.  Problem is I have to work tomorrow so that will be 8.5 hours unobserved.

As for pain meds she had a dose of nartotic I believe after surgery but now I only have ibuprophen(Motrin):< which I have been giving at the prescribed dose every 4-4.5 hours.  Are there any other drugs that are stronger that could be safe and get her through the 8.5 hours I work?  I went to my vet today and they are not sure of anything(they have little or no experience with rats).

This is a tough one, I don't think she can do a collar because of her age 2 years 11 months(especially for 10 days) and I don't want to wrap it to bring unwanted attention to the area because shes been good so far.  

Are there any drugs that could sedate her for a period of time but be safe on her?  She is on Baytril for infection and Zithro for her breathing which I started before surgery.    

I need some luck here!!!

ANSWER: I really think she will be ok if she hasnt touched them yet...but you know her better than anyone.  

As long as she is comfortable she will or at least she SHOULD leave them alone.    

Let me know how it goes!  COuld you smuggle her into work with you:)?

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Well its been 120 long hours since Smudge received her
staples after pulling out her nylon sutures.  She received
the staples on Sunday afternoon, it is now the following
Friday afternoon.  She seems to have little interest in
them, although she didn't seem to have much interest in
sutures either.

There is no sign of infection, she is eating well and
sleeping well.  I am planning on removing the staples on
Monday, it will have been 8 days after they were put in.  
The wound looks very good considering it was a very deep
hole to her insides.

I did use ibuprophren and orange bitter to try to deter her
and cleaned the cage 3-4 times a day during this time to
keep infection out.  The only thing I can think of are the
staples were not tight, they seemed loose as staples go.  
It may not have bothered her as much.  The sutures where
double layer and very nicely done but definitely tight
looking and in her body whereas the staples are more on the
surface holding the skin together.  You know its funny she
didn't make a noise when the staples went in(any that I
could hear).

I did not use a collar but I have before on a younger rat
that was successful.  I thought Smudge was too old for a
collar.

So now she can look forward to her third birthday in 3
weeks as well as possibly her 4th Halloween and Christmas
which is pretty full life for her!!!!!

Oh yeah, and I'm ecstatic she made it through!!!!!

Answer
Thats good news!!  Yeppers, the staples were looser thus in turn they did not cause pinching from pulling and so she let them alone. I stand by my statement that the rats will NOT pick the stitches if they are comfortable but soon as they become a bother, they will do what they can do get rid of them.

Keep me posted!  I love happy endings.  I did the same as you with my old girl, Holly.  She had numerous tumor surgeries and they kept growing back over and over since they were benign and fueled by high estrogen levels. Finally I stopped with the surgeries feeling that one day I would not be so lucky and she would not recover so I let the last tumor alone. Within weeks she had two large tumors and they kept growing and even had about 6 small ones.  After months of tumor growth, her body was frail, she had lost weight because the tumors had become so vascular they were robbing her body of nutrients and she was being starved despite her ravenous appetite.  We were scared of organ failure which probably would have occurred and caused her death anyhow.
I did not want her to suffer so I brought her in to have her put to sleep.  Her spirit was still high, she was still so happy and active best she could be with those lemon sized tumors.   The vet and I felt so guilty putting her to sleep because she seemed determined to live!
So....I said LETS DO IT!  Lets do the surgery and if she doesnt make it....it wasnt meant to be.   He agreed, reminded me what I knew, that she had a really slim chance of making it because she was so fragile.
She had about a 5% chance of pulling through.
90 minutes under anesthesia and some blood loss that was a bit more than anticipated, she was alive, but critical.  I prayed all night that if she was suffering, she would go in her sleep. The next day the Vet called and said she was alive and alert and eating and getting around etc...and she shocked us all and lived to be just a few months shy of her 4th birthday.She was a wild rat I trained and had her from 11 weeks old on.
So this is another happy story to add to mine.  Do you have a photo of her?