elderly rat ripping incision open!

Question

mr whites after surger   QUESTION: Hello Sandra, today I had taken my 4 year old boy Mr White in to have a .25lb tumor removed. We were going to just leave the tumor as we felt he was too old for surgery. However within the last three months the tumor has gotten so huge he could barley walk and was becoming vascular.
The surgery went well but tonite I noticed he has been obsessed with licking and chewing on the incision. He has ripped about a one inch hole into his chest tearing the incision open and ripping the connecting skin!
I had called my vet on his cell phone and he asked me to give him some medicam and to bring him in in the morning. The medicam is not helping him stop. I have read up on e-collar's and read that they are not a good idea for pet rats?
This is what my vet is suggesting we do for him tomorrow. I am hoping to get your opinion.
For now I have placed him in a clean cat carrier with all clean blankets and his companion. Please give me some advice. He is so old and I don't want him to get an infection. Thank You

ANSWER: Check out my site, sandyscrittercity.com and read up on post op complications. I have two stories just like what your  going through now.

It will explain WHY he is doing this and how to get him to stop...which is up to the Vet in that case.  He will need closed again but hopefully the vet will do a suture where its under the skin so he cant see them....

Rats that pull their stitches out do it for a reason..they hurt do to being pulled to tightly etc...

I am very  happy your boy made it through the surgery....your very brave to have had the surgery done on an older rat like him.  Hopefully the vet has gone over the problems that can occur with an older rat, from the fact that they have less of a chance of surviving anesthesia, which, we are now past that but I would be leary of putting him down again to have him stitched up. The liver at this age can only take so much.  Have you had him for nearly 4 years or did you get him at a certain age and you were told he was XYZ old.  Also, older rats have a harder time healing thus in turn are more likely to have infections which is why he should be on antibiotics too.

Anyhow, let me know after going over my website and the info on rats that pull stitches out etc... and we will go from  there.

REVISED:

I forgot to add, you will see on my  site how I suggest staples for rats that chew sutures, and this would be ideal because he wont need put under again to have them put in.

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QUESTION: Thank you Sandra for your reply. I had already taken him into the vet and luckily his advice matched yours. He put a couple of staples and left a small opening so it will heal easier and it would also help incase of infection? He had said that that particular part of the incision was tight because the tumor was so huge under that part of the arm.
Yes I waited until absolutely necessary to do the surgery. He couldn't walk anymore and was stepping on it. Poor old dude couldn't get in his hammocks and just was not happy. He was also starting to loose weight. So I figured if we didn't try the tumor was going to rob all his organs and kill him soon anyway.
To answer your question about his age. I am quite certain it is fairly accurate. We rescued him %26 his two brothers 3 years ago in aug. at that time he was about 6 months +! He was full grown and used as a breeder.
I have had him on doxicycline for about the last 6 months and planned to keep him on that for life. When I decided to go for the surgery I put him on .15 of the liquid %10 baytril. He had been on that for 4 days prior and I plan to keep him on it probably for life.... knock on wood and lets hope that is a while longer.
He just has an amazing will to live I really wanted to give him the chance to fight. He has outlived all of his brothers by over a year. And his girlfriends (nextdoor neighbor cage) so out of 8 rats we have 2 left and he is still doing well. He has never really been too sick he has had two tumor removals prior and has had some myco complications.
My rats are spoiled and get the very best. I have always special ordered the litter (alpha dry virgin paper) and the food is the harland teckland lab blocks specific to the rats age and condition. Always kept up on meds and myco and give them soy formula and baby food + supplements when sick:) I am not trying to brag LOL I guess what I am trying to say is maybe with all my hard work and Mr Whites amazing will to live he can make it another 6 months to a year!!! I love that boy so much!!! If not then I know his spirit and he will put up a hell of a fight!
I have been really fortunate to have such a great advisor to get me through these rough patches when It is hard to know if I am doing the right thing or not. Thank you for that:)
Oh also I picked up some of that sour apple no peck stuff from the vet Hopefully that will work and we also have him on some medicam which makes him sleepy and less agitated:)
Now I am just crossing my fingers for a speedy recovery. I do know it will take some time for him to heal. His last surgery about 7 months ago took about 3 months to completely heal. However the incision came back together quit nice and quick but the red mark and irritated skin lasted forever:(
I am hopeing that leaving the small opening that My vet was doing the right thing. I am changing his paper towels about 4 times a day just to promot a clean invironment. I have every supplement under the sun so if you can think of anything else I may need to do pls tell. I think I will also still give him a little formula at night with the PB8 (pro biotic).

ANSWER: Awesome job at raising rats.  Not that I doubt his age (I have had several live to be 4, with one passing at the age of 4 yrs, 3 weeks) and have had surgery done on rats over 3, but just curious as to your rats age and how well he did with anesthesia etc... you must share the name of your vet and your city/state so I can share it with others when they ask for Vet names.

Keeping him on baytril for life is something I highly recommend, even on my website under the mycoplasmosis page.  I am glad the vet used staples. The reason it may heal better with staples is, believe it or not, the more open the incision, the better it will heal, and with your clean cage habits I am sure you promote, this would be an ideal way for him to heal. I dont like staples in most cases but when you have a rat that will chew, (and again, they will chew if they are in discomfort to relieve their pain) and they have also been so aggressive at it they have removed   staples before, too, so beware, just in case. This is not common and often indicates other problems such as infection or even nerve problems from the surgery, depending on how vascular the tumor was.

I did what you did with my older rat once.  Holly was her name. She was a wild rat as in the real deal Norway rat. Got her around 11 weeks old, real terror, too. Biting everything in site, and finally I decided to take my own advice and trust train her. A week later, she was a new rat. Around 2.5 yrs old, she became a tumor factory...after several surgeries, I decided to NOT operate on anymore after she was 3. It wasnt fair to her, so it seemed. But her will to live was extraordinary and despite how frail she had become and the fact she could not use her hind legs due to the weight of the tumor....she had learned how to cope, propelling across the  plastic surface of the cage bottom to use her litter pan. I always litter pan trained my rats and this little girl was still determined to use it even though I would not have cared if she pooped wherever her rattie heart desired.  Finally I knew it was not fair for her to be this way so I took her in to the Vets to let her go. He couldn't do it either. Said she had too much fire in her yet...I  cried...he shed a tear or  two..and we crossed our fingers as he gave her a 5%      chance of survival. What was the risk? Dying in surgery or euthanasia, right?  So much to both of our surprise, that little turd lived, despite alot of blood loss and 90 minutes under anesthesia, which is absolutely INSANE, he removed two huge vascular tumors and a few small ones. My little girl had infection after infection, for three weeks we kept her at the Vets office and I came to see her all the time. She finally got past all of it and came home to live just two months shy of turning 4 years old.  At first I was  kicking myself for the surgery since she had such  nasty smelly infections I feared it was methicillin resistant staph aureus (MRSA), but after a culture or ten, we found the culprit  (too long ago to recall the big fancy name) I have her story on my   website too along with photos. which reminds me....your last photo was too small....can you send me some photos of your strong willed boy to post on my website?  I would be  so honored to feature him on my elderly rats page!

Dont forget to share the vets name, too.  I have a few  favorites across the United States, from an awesome vet in Westminster CA to one that I have used many times when I lived in NC. Curious to see if yours is on my list!  LOL!



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mr white   QUESTION: Yes I would love to have you post My Dear Mr White! He truly is a trouper and a real mammas boy!!! He is showing sign of improvement his eyes look happy and he is excited to get new furniture and his baby food so that  is a good sign. I have read the story of your Dear Holly what a girl! My rats just amaze me every day with their strong will to survive! They truly are amazing resilient creatures!

My vets name is Peter Rule @ Glacierview Animal Hospital 1874 Main Street
Ferndale, WA 98248-9454
(360) 384-4482
I looked high and low to find him "literally" I have been through about 5 vets. He studied at UW university and worked on lab rats and mice (mostly mice) although he does not have a lot of experience with pet rats he has been very generous in with working with me in trying to get to know the lovely creatures.

Now this is not guaranteed but he has been doing my surgeries for $50 and said he would do most rat surgeries for $50. This last one was only $100 because it was more complicated and I insisted he charge me more! He does not have a lot of experience working with pet rats other than mine, However between me, you and Debbie Doccumons literature combined with lots of research he has become quite knowledgeable! He LOVES LOVES working on rats, at first I was a bit worried but he has done many many surgeries on my ratties and has gotten very good and I highly recommend and trust him.

I will send you some pics of my baby boy! Let me know if they do not upload properly and maybe you can send me your e-mail confidentially and I can send them that way:)

Thank You
Mary

Answer
Thanks for the name of your vet.

Just to let you know, as per the location of your Vet, you are living about 90 minutes from one of the BEST avian/exotic vets in on the West coast.  Her name is Dr. Cathy Johnson‐Delaney, located in Kirkland, WA and she is one of the elite 9 Vets that have just recently become the very first Exotic Companion Mammal Vet. This means our rats FINALLY have their own vet. No more sharing it with avian Vets....but now this new specialty means these vets are experts in small mammals like rats and mice and ferrets etc...and so on.  She is the ONLY one in the state of Washington to hold this title. You can see the complete list on my website too by  referring to the page on Vets which is about the fourth or fifth category on the index, I think.


Here is some info on her taken from the AEMV site:

Cathy A. Johnson-Delaney, DVM DABVP-Avian Practice

Dr. Johnson-Delaney is a 1980 graduate of Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine. She has practiced avian and exotic companion animal medicine in the greater Puget Sound area for more than 25 years. Dr. Johnson-Delaney is board certified by the Am Bd of Vet Practitioners in Avian Practice and received the 2003 Exotic DVM of the Year Award.

During her career, she has advanced the cause of exotic animal practice through her involvement with the Association of Avian Veterinarians, the Association of Exotic Mammal Veterinarians, and the laboratory animal field. She is considered one of the worlds leading authorities on endocrine disease and multi-neoplastic syndrome in ferrets and she is deeply involved in continuing clinical research. She serves as Medical Director for the Washington Ferret Rescue %26 Shelter, consulting veterinarian for the Oregon Tiger Sanctuary and the Pacific Primate Sanctuary.

Dr. Johnson-Delaney is an international speaker on all aspects of nontraditional companion animals and is the author of the best-selling Exotic Companion Medicine Handbook for Veterinarians, published by Zoological Education Network. She is a member of the Washington State Veterinary Medical Association, American Veterinary Medical Association, Association of Avian Veterinarians, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians, American Association of Zoo Veterinarians, American Society of Laboratory Animal Practitioners, American Association of Laboratory Animal Science, Association of Exotic Mammal Veterinarians and the Association of Northwest Avian %26 Exotic Veterinarians.

Anyone lucky enough to be near her would be insane not to bring your rats to her should they have a problem your general vet cannot handle. I know your out of her range, but should you ever need something that your current vet is not comfortable with, I would make the 90 minute drive. Examples of what you may run into while owning rats which I have found that many general vets are not comfortable with would be an enucleation. I have seen the work of general vets that did not have the micro surgical implements and the job was a mess. My rat had to have his eye removed and the fur grew over it, no problem. My vet was a specialist. I have seen some real botch jobs because of the wrong tools etc...  Also, spays. We all know (esp if you have read my site but you probably know this anyhow) that female rats should really be spayed at a young age, between 3 and 5 months old, in order to really prevent the growth of mammary tumors later in life. I would be very leery of having a general vet spaying such a tiny rat and would only use someone like Dr. Delaney!
Also, serious cases of myco that wont resolve, internal tumors, even nasty and almost always fatal zymbals gland tumors are best handled by someone like her as well.


Also, my email is ratcareconsultant@yahoo.com so please send more photos so I can put him up. He is darling. I have had several boys that resemble him.  I keep mostly boys...right now I have three boys that are a bit over a year old.