Ferret food, LITTERBOX WOES

Question
QUESTION: Hello Jacquie. I recently adopted a female ferret (1,5 y.o.)  I did not want to lock her up in a cage so I let Noura run "freely" in the house all day. I would like to know how I can make her use the litter pan at least 7 times out of 10 :-) she refuses to lift a leg and if I lift her up she claims back out and misses the target. What can I do to make her use the litter pan more often? Also I did a lot of research on what exactly to feed her. I've had Noura since a week and I tried several meats such as lamb and beef, she didn't want to try it. I doubt she'll like mice. I found out about "8 in 1" labeled dry food which contains the right amount of protein, fat and fiber. She really likes it but that is about all she liked from all the ferret "test foods" I tried to give her. I read in one of your replies that you suggest not to feed ferrets any fruits or vegetables. Some ferret owners seem to recommend it though. Can you give me some ideas on what else I could give Noura besides the dry food. Do you know of any ferret food recipes? What about baby food? What do you give to yours? And is there a way to make her like raw meat :-)) ??? One more question, the previous owner told me she never took Noura to a vet and today I actually saw slimy, green stool. Can you recommend a vet or know where I could look for in the Internet? Thank you so much for your time. Naima
ANSWER: Hi Naima!

I will try to answer your questions - if I miss a few, write again, okay?  I'll do the best I can.

If you are going to let Noura run loose in the house, you should litterbox train her FIRST.   First start with a small room and you in it (usually the bathroom)  Wake her up, take a few toys and a litterbox to the bathroom and close the door.  After a minute or two, put her in the litterbox and say "GO POTTY GOOD GIRL?"  Ferrets usually go potty within minutes of waking up, so it shouldn't take long.  You will need to keep her in ONE room each day at playtime with you in with  her, regularly (about every 1/2 hr) reminding her while also playing (she should be in a cage the rest of the time when you cannot watch her). Every time you see her back up, pick her up quickly and say "POTTY GOOD GIRL?" and place her back side towards the back of the litterbox and see if she goes. IF she does, be sure to praise her a LOT.  Do this each time.  After a while, you will see her start to go to the box on her own, without you reminding her each time. Then is when you can open the room up and allow her access to a larger area - again, always watching her during playtime, especially when she first wakes up to "POTTY GOOD GIRL". When she becomes pretty regular there, you can *eventually* open her up to the whole house (AFTER you very very thoroughly ferretproof your home so that it is safe for her - MOST ferret owners do NOT leave their ferrets loose in the house when they are gone because there are SO many places ferrets can get hurt or killed when not supervised. It is safer for your ferret to be in her cage.  It also takes a lot of TIME to litterbox train, but once it is finished, you never have to do it again. The larger room you go into, the more litterboxes you must get - one in each corner of the room at least - they don't hold it very long, so if they get in a hurry, might now make it to the box.  I have a medium-large livingroom with six boxes in it, but my ferrets never miss - I'm also a stay-at-home mom, so am here with them all the time and they have my undivided attention, so that is NOT the norm.  Most ferrets are lucky if they get to 50% litterbox trained - but again, you MUST put in the time if you want her trained.  Also try different shapes of litterboxes, some triangle and some rectangle - some ferrets will ONLY use rectangle pans with high sides - others will use anything.

Here is a good website for ferret foods and how to determine the good ones. Use the "FOUR OUT OF FIVE" rule to choose a good kibble. NO ONE should be saying that dried fruits or vegetables are good for ferrets. NEVER. They cause intestinal blockages and that is an emergency surgery that can cost anywhere from $300-$1,000. Definitely not worth it.  Ferrets are "obligate carnivores",which means they should eat MEAT and MEAT BYPRODUCTS only - the other ingredients in kibble are fillers - they don't hurt the ferret, but don't add anything to their nutrition either - they simply make it so they can make meat meals last on the shelf so they don't spoil and so they will stay together in nice convenient little shapes, and other ingredients to keep the meats from spoiling.

       http://www.ohioferret.org/INFO/nutri.asp

Things you can give Noura other than kibbled foods listed above are Ferretone (mix 1/2 and 1/2 with virgin olive oil and she can have about 1tbsp/day for shiny coat - just don't overdo. The olive oil is to make less Vitamin A,which is easy to overdose them on, so if you add the oil, you can give them twice as much Ferretone (or Furotone) - they LOVE it!  Also, you can give healthy meat treats; my kids love Totally Ferret Treats. I give them "duck soup" at night. Some make their own, but I use either chicken or turkey baby food (meat ONLY) or Hill's A/D you can get at the vet's office. I use a big spoonful of it and a small amount of water, microwave, stir well to be sure there are no hot spots, and serve warm at bedtime! My kids wait up for theirs :-) Again, this is ALL MEAT product. Also good to get them used to is because it is what you will use if Noura ever gets sick or has surgery,so it is good to get her used to it now,so she will welcome it and it may save her life being familiar with it.  My complaint about other people's "homemade duck soup" is that they usually contain honey or molasses, either sweet things or other things that ferrets SHOULD NOT HAVE. They *think* they are making a treat, but what they are really doing is setting their ferret up for insulinoma (caused by eating sugar) in old age :-(

There is no good way to make her eat raw meat; I would suggest making sure it is very fresh, cutting it in small pieces and maybe even dribbling a bit of Ferretone on it to get her to taste it.  My kids hate raw meat, even tho I've tried several times. Unless it was introduced when they were teeny tiny, they may never learn to like it - stick with chicken and turkey and wash the parts first. I know some folks who feed mice 'pinkies' you get at the pet store frozen; thaw and put in cage (they are already dead very young babies with no fur). I haven't tried that because my heart just won't let me feed meat if it still looks like the animal <too sad>.

You should definitely find a vet and get a vaccination schedule set up. Noura probably has only had the first vaccination the breeder gave her, no distemper shot and no rabies shot :-(   Be sure the rabies and distemper are NOT given at the same time; AND be sure each shot is given ONLY after the vet gives a benadryl shot (to help prevent reaction to shot) One of my kids had a reaction and almost died and never has been right since, so it's definitely worth it AND stay at the vet's office at least 1/2 hr after the shot.  You need an "Exotics" vet - not just a regular dog and cat vet; so be sure to ask when you call if they see a LOT of ferrets - how many a week?

If you will write back with your location, I will try to locate a vet in your area that has been used and recommended by other ferret owners. There are several places to check, but some are not as reliable as others. You can look them up yourself, if you prefer. Here are two of the URLS I use - hopefully you can find one in your area (these are for USA, let me know if you need elsewhere):

http://www.ferretuniverse.com/vets/vetlist.asp

http://ferrethealth.org/vets/

A book I highly recommend to all new and old ferret owners is "FERRETS FOR DUMMIES" by Kim Schilling and also a GREAT website is:

http://www.ferretcentral.org

and just click on whatever you are interested - it's well divided into sections - everything from getting a new ferret, ferretproofing, litterbox training, illnesses and even fun parts like ferret sounds and tricks.

There are MANY ferret groups online that are a wealth of information. NORWEGIAN FERRET FAMILY (MSN GROUP), FERRETS (MSN GROUP), and many many more you will find just by doing a search on "ferret group". Most welcome any ferret owner; some require membership. It's a GREAT way to meet other ferret lovers and trade information, pictures, etc. LOTS of fun!

Best of luck!  Hope I got all your questions - if not, don't hesitate to write again!

sincerely,
Jacquie Rodgers

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Jacquie! I'm sorry, I accidently posted my e-mail to the "Comments" section. Here is what I wrote:

Thank you so much for your time and for answering all my questions. I began the training, I realize now it is going to take us a while to get it right ;-) I will look up the websites you provided but please I would love if you could help me find a good vet for my Noura. I live in South Miami, Kendall, FL 33143. I found a vet listed on a ferret shelter website but I am not too sure about it. I will give them a call this week. Can you please help me locate a good one??? Thank you again for your support. Thanks. Yasmina
ANSWER: Hi Yasmina!

So happy to hear from you again. Yes, it will take time - the more time you spend with Noura, though, the faster she will learn and bond to you.  So, don't give up - it's very very worthwhile, you just have to stick with it.

I checked and you have an abundance of good ferret vets in your area according to folks who have recommended ferret vets in the past.  Here's the list I got - hopefully the one you had chosen is on here?:

Distance in miles: 02
Dr. Marc Kramer
Avian and Exotic Animal Medical Center
12125 S. Dixie Hwy
Miami, FL, 33156
305-234-BIRD (2473)
http://www.avianexotic.com

Distance in miles: 02
Bird & Exotic Wildlife Hospital
William Chavez, DVM
9495 Old Dixie Highway
Miami, FL 33156
http://www.birdexoticwildlife.com (link broken as of 9/12/05)

Distance in miles: 05
South Kendall Animal Hospital
9501 SW 160th Street
Miami. FL 33176
Phone: 305-238-2030
Fax: 305-238-7869
http://www.southkendall.com/

Distance in miles: 09
Jorge Larin DVM
20205 Franjo RD
Miami, FL 33189-1818
(305) 251-6151

Distance in miles: 13
David Stelling, DVM
PO Box 924094
Homestead, FL 33092
305-278-2028
(House-call services in the Miami (Dade County) area)

33143
South Miami Animal Hospital
Dr. Jorge Larin
6100 S Dixie Hwy
South Miami, FL 33143
305-667-7238

33143
Austin-Daniels Animal Hospital
Dr. Marta Sanchez
7535 SW 62nd Ave
South Miami, FL 33143
305-665-3526


Best of luck - don't hesitate to write again for any reason - that's what we're here for !

Sincerely,
Jacquie Rodgers


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Speaking of the book by Kim Shilling, actually I've been watching the item on ebay. Noura is trying to type on my keyboard as I'm writing you :-) As for the litterbox training, she seems to think the box is the playground for she dives into it and rolls around in it. She doesn't like to use neither of both shapes. So at least I try to make her follow me to the bathroom every time I see her walking backwards. The good part is that I started working from home, so I get to spend my whole day with her. This week I'm taking her to one of the vets whose addresses you provided. Few of them are very close to me. Thank you very much for the information and for the tipps. I will make sure the shots aren't given at the same time. How much time between the shots would you recommend? I'm so sorry to read about your baby who had a reaction to the shots. It is sad when they get sick. They are such wonderful animals. All animals are I guess. I will definitely make sure the vet gives her the benadryl shot before the other two. But how much time do you think is necessary? Thanks :-)
ANSWER: Hi again Yasmina and Noura!

So happy to hear from you!  Lucky you being able to work at home now; you will have her litterbox trained in no time at all - really you will.  Isn't it funny how they follow us into the bathroom,then all of a sudden THEY have to go potty too?  I keep a litterbox in the bathroom and my kids will crawl all over each other trying to be the first one in the box so they can potty while mommy is going potty!  LOL  I finally put a little litterbox on each side of the toilet, but they still want to use the same one LOL.

Noura has probably already had her first distemper shot if you got her from a pet store or a breeder, so she will need two more distemper shots and one rabies shot. There should be four weeks in between each shot (either distemper OR rabies) and you give benadryl before BOTH the distemper AND the rabies shots.  Even tho Kylie's reaction was to a distemper shot, I've heard horror stories about rabies shots too. I tell you, these guys will give you a heart attack if you let them!  :-)  Your vet will know how long to wait before shots.  I used a vet once that gave a shot every two weeks until they had all of them - as long as the distemper shots are one month apart (put the rabies shot in between the two remaining distemper shots she needs (for a total of three).  NEXT YEAR she will ONLY need one distemper booster shot and one rabies shot and you will do those every year.  It also gives your vet a good opportunity to check your ferret over and hopefully notice any early symptoms of problems.  Since Kylie had such a severe reaction to distemper shots, she cannot have any more distemper shots........which sounds like a good idea, but I have to be incredibly careful about making sure that she isn't exposed to any animals that may not be immunized - such as taking her for walks, etc.  Distemper is soo contagious that it can be brought into the house on your shoes!  So I have that constant worry :-(   So, it's that important that you do get your ferret vaccinated every year on time.

Noura sounds like quite a little stinker - my kids love to type on the computer too!  LOL

Hey, here's another really good place to get Ferrets for Dummies by Kim Schilling:    http://www.half.com   It's an eBay company, but I find that sometimes their prices are lower overall - and they aren't bid on, you just pay the price they have listed, so you can get a 'used' one for less than half price and sometimes pennies on the dollar!

Best of luck to you and Noura.  Stay in touch and let me know if/when I can be of any help.  I'm SO happy to hear that Noura is doing so well and I can *hear* in your writings that you really love that little girl!  :-)

Sincerely,

Jacquie Rodgers



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: LOL, that is the cutest thing ever. As if one has to remind them that it's about time to go potty, lol. Otherwise they are going to hold it and hold it thinking if they left they may miss out on something, until they can't hold it no more then they headed for the nearest corner, lol. Noura even eats when I eat. It's so interesting to watch her do the things I do. But I would love to see her play with a fellow ferret(s).

Thanks again for the Link to half.com

I'm sorry to be dwelling on this, but is it possible that some ferrets never learn to use a litterbox? Noura resists so stubbornly that I started to feel sorry and so at the end after trying I let her potty on the floor, in her favorite corner, lol. If I try to place her back into the litterbox, gently of course, she looks at me saying "playtime??", then like I said before she begins to dive and roll around in it. Other times she jumps out of it and lays on the floor as if she thought I didn't want her to potty. Her previous "owner" told me she was never litter trained. So maybe it's going to take another 1 1/2 to teach her? Sorry about that but I wish she would use it at least once, lol. But instead she seems to systematically avoid it, lol. Thanks for your time and your replies. I appreciate it. Thanks, Yasmina

Answer
Hi Yasmina:

I don't mind you "dwelling on it" at all - it's obviously still a problem for Noura, therefore for you also. We WILL find a solution. Sometimes it takes several different tricks before one works.

From what you describe of Noura rolling over and laying on the floor, she is NOT understanding what you want her to do....so that's problem number one.  I do believe she will WANT to please you as soon as she understands what it is that you want her to do.  Let's go down the list of possible things that COULD be keeping her from using that box. I promise you, we WILL make that previous owner's words end up being wrong. We must just be more patient and keep trying.......

1. Are you keeping Noura in a cage while you are gone in the daytime?  Is she using the litterbox in that cage?

2. Have you changed the kind of litter you use?  If you were using newspaper pellets, use clay litter (NOT clumping kind tho)?  If you've used both of those, have you tried just putting layers of newspaper in the corners of the cage - or wherever she tends to go potty?   If she won't go to the litterbox....remember, bring the litterbox to her. So, wherever she is pottying, THAT is where to put the litterbox.

3. Have you tried different SHAPES of litterboxes? Most people start with triangles because they fit nicely in cages, but most *fussy* ferrets prefer rectangle boxes with high sides like Marshalls makes.

4. Have you tried putting FRESH poops and pee(blotted up onto a Kleenex) into the litterbox you are asking her to use, so she smells them and can see that you want them there?  You need to take out any old ones and put in "fresh" ones at least once a day.

5. Are you putting Noura into the litterbox and expecting her to go potty immediately after you wake her up?  If so, try waiting a few minutes, say 10 minutes (but watch her CLOSELY in the meantime and IF she starts to back up, plop her into the litterbox gently with her rear facing the back corner)  Often they need to walk around a little bit before their bladder 'wakes up'.  My Kylie is that way. She waits a few minutes after she wakes up to go potty, but my other ferret goes right away - it's like his way of announcing "I'm awake now!"  LOL

The best way to do it is just sit close enough (stay in a small play area, closed off by possibly a 'ferret playpen' or stay in the bathroom until she uses the litterbox, THEN let her play out in the rest of the house for a while, watching her closely. About every hour, return to the small area or bathroom and keep an eye on her backing up again.  If she starts to back up, plop her into the litterbox.  IF she is coming out of the box when you put her in, even tho she was previously backing up and she continues to do this, likely she doesn't like the feel of whatever is in the litterbox on her feet - so just take newspaper and fold it to fit the litterbox (use the NON-shiny pieces only. The ads don't absorb as well) and let her use that.

Let me know the answers to the above....or if there is any change by changing any of them, okay?  I promise, there is NO ferret that is not litterbox trainable.  Just because she was not trained before just means that she doesn't understand YET what it is you are asking her to do.  Don't punish her by OVERdoing it - let her go ahead and play if putting her back in the box 6 times doesn't work. Just keep an eye on her and be ready to put her into the box when she does start to back up.  I hate to see her lose too much playtime being placed into the litterbox; she may end up thinking it's a bad thing and we don't want that.

By the way...IF she does go potty IN THE LITTERBOX - be sure to wait till she is finished, then grab her up and make a really big deal, telling her "GOOD GIRL!!" and give her a little treat or a piece of kibble, lots of attention and YOU jump around and keep saying "NOURA GOOD GIRL!!!" so she sees how happy it makes you - that truly will have an effect on her.

Stay strong and hang in there....let me know how it goes!

sincerely,
Jacquie Rodgers