Too many follow ups

Question
QUESTION: Hi,

The site just told me i had to many follow ups and to ask a new question, so i opened a new question.
Don't worry about taking long to reply. I'm in no hurry. And at the moment i can only afford to ride once a week, so while your answers give me a lot to think about i wouldn't have had the time to implement anything you spoke about between one reply and another.

Frankly, Sam's girthing issue is something i had thought i had to accept as a 'character flaw'. She's been ridden for several years, by several experienced riders, and i had no real hope that anything could be done about it.
You have no idea how thrilled i am that there is something i can actively do about it! :)

So don't worry about delaying your replies, i'm just happy i'm getting an answer :)

Look forward to hearing from you

Lisa

ANSWER:        Hi Lisa,
    Thanks for your latest reply, which gave me a bit of a boost. I find it gratifing to think that I might be helping someone to improve their relationship with their horses. I thought that the site might put a limit on the number of times you could respond, but I see you have found a way around that.
    Now, to get to your present problem, could I begin by outlining some general principles. Much of training comes down to teaching a horse to respond to certain stimuli, and to ignore others. In the former case, you irritate them until you get a response (the pressure and release system), then you reward them by removing the irritant. This is normally used to teach them to move in a certain direction, so they very quickly learn, that if they make the desired movement, then the irritant goes away (I know that most of the time it is a very tempory release, but fortunately for us they don't know it). Mostly, in the latter case, you are trying to teach them NOT  to move. So, you have to persuade them that something, which would normally be "scary", or uncomfortable for them, really is not that bad. Therefore the onus is on you to make the "scary" less so, and the "uncomfortable" as comfortable as possible. I hope you are still with me.
    I very much doubt that Sam's girthing issue is due to a character flaw. I firmly believe that she has learned that this is, in fact an uncomfortable (possibly often a painful procedure), and has learned to react accordingly. The answer is to convince her that this is not necessarily the case(at least when you do it).
    Obviously this is going to take some time, and you need some protection in the interim. Sorry Lisa, I am going to digress for a minute or two. There is another issue that arises here, and that is the question of negative consequesces V. punishment. I believe that "a negative consequence" that is immediate, has a very powerful influence on a horse, whereas a punishment that arrives a second or two later, has a much lesser effect. Hmmmm. not too sure if I explained that very well. I'll tell you what, I'll leave it for the moment, and if you need clarification, just ask. Anyway, I'm sure you want me to get to the nub of the question. I think that your best "weapon" is your left elbow, so I was thinking in terms of some kind of padding, as a protection, and additionally some kind of a hard outer shell that would give Sam an unpleasant "bump" in the mouth, when she would try to bite. I made some enquiries, and it was suggested that the type of elbow protection worn by skateboarders, or those that ride mountain bikes(or other similar pursuits, rollerbladers etc.)might fit the bill. I have never seen any of these items up close, so I don't know if they would work. You might like to have a look at some of these, to see if they might work. Bear in mind that you might need a few of these i.e. possibly 2 or even 3 fitted above the elbow, and maybe even 1 below to give you adequate protection.
    To move on to the training (or retraining) aspect, I would suggest that you try to think of this issue as a sort of "stand alone" module wherin success is measured, not in terms of you getting the girth tightened up to the degree required for mounting, but in you getting it fastened without Sam trying to bite you. The first step here is to ensure that you have a girth that is long enough to allow for fastening with a minimum of pressure on her underparts, then gradually tighten it in small increments, so that,hopefully, she won't even notice.
    Well! there you have it. I seem to have run dry for the moment. I will admit that I am not overly happy with what I have written, as it seems very long winded, and I am not too sure of the clarity, but I hope you will let me know what you think (maybe next time I might be able to get my head into a better gear).
    Once againI'll wish you luck
         Slan,
         Brendan          

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi,

Thanks again for your reply. I don't mind long winded, the more the merrier :)
And i found it perfectly clear to understand. I understand also the importance of an immediate response or punishment being the most effective, as we used it in house training our youngest dog. Because of the time she had spent in quarantine (since we imported her) she got into the habit of soiling on the carpets, and couldn't understand why we were getting angry at her about it. I basically ended up stalking her for a day to catch her in the act, or rather about to. After that she didn't do it again.

So when it comes to the girthing, you mean i should stand where she CAN reach me but will find it unpleasent when she does? rather than staying out of her reach and have her try when i am in reach?

Most of the time she just gives warnings, just snaps her teeth and turns her head a little bit and snaps towards me. Its less common that she actually tries to go through with it. Though like i said before it could be because she knows i'm watching her.

Also, the minute i put the saddle cloth over her back her ears start going back. Its not just while actually tightening the girth that she snaps in warning. At the moment i first tighten the girth just enough for the saddle to stay on while she's still in the box. Then when we're ready to leave i tighten the rest before i mount her. Again her she either snaps or, since she's not restricted by the box starts walking away.

Also another thing i got into the habit of doing when she's in a really bad mood is holding the girth in place and pulling it tight, without fastening it, while basically staring her down and telling her to behave. Once she does i fasten the girth, though i still get a few snaps.

Don't know if that makes a difference to you.

Look forward to hearing from you

Lisa

Ps

we washed the horses today and when i was sitting on the stone bench with the new one, the dominant one, on a lead, waiting for her to dry she came up to me after pacing up and down for a bit, and gave me a good long sniff. I suppose i must have smelt like all the other horses put together after a morning washing them! I was a little nervous because i dont' quite trust her yet, but she was perfectly sweet hust sniffing and poking her nose in my face and hands. Hopefully its just a matter of getting to know each other better :)

ANSWER:        Hi Lisa,
    This time round I think the best thing I can do is suggest some subjects for you to study. I had to review your previous questions, and my replies to see if I had mentioned these already, but I see that I hadn't. There are many good articles available on the Internet, under the headings of "Round Pen Techniques", "Herd Dynamics", and "Natural Horsemanship", that I think could move your understanding on significantly. The ideas contained in some of these articles have gone a long way in helping to formulate my present attitude to training horses. Now I also feel compelled to refer to something I mentioned earlier, and that is the matter of "pressure and release". I mentioned an answer that I had written to "Alice" last Dec., but I don't know if you have read it yet. If not, can I implore you to do so, because, although I know that I wrote it in response to a certain set of circumstances, the basic concept has absolutely huge implications for every aspect of both riding and horsemanship.
    Getting back to your present situation, the story is that, you as the dominant "creature" have the right to go where you please, when you please, and your "subjects" have no right to object. Conversely, they have no right to enter your space without invitation. Now if Sam turns her head to bite you then, she is contravening that rule, and YES I am saying that you should stand within her range, and as it were "dare" her to attempt to "attack" you. That is why I believe that protection, in the form of padding is important (largely to increase your self confidence), and if you can also manage the "hard shell" to introduce the "negative consequence" then you should be in the position to demonstrate that you are the the one with the power.
    As regards the saddle cloth, why don't you tell me how that should be dealt with? Don't worry about the possibility of being wrong. The point here is that, while you can ask me, and I can point you in a certain direction, ultimately it is you who has to make the decisions,so this might be an easy place to start.
    The idea of holding the girth tight, without fastening it is exactly what I would experiment with in the situation you describe.
    Finally, in relation to your p.s., could I be so bold as to issue another challenge. Bearing in mind, that I didn't witness the event and, am relying on you account of it, what do think my response (or the correct one) would be. Please be assured that this is not an attempt to "catch you out", rather, it is an attempt to get you started on the road of making you own decisions, and it would help me to ascertain how ready you are.
    I hope that I haven't frightened you off with this reply, but it is just that I feel that a person can come to overly rely on the opinions of others, while in "the heel of the hunt", it is they who have to decide on the "where", "when" "why", and "how" to apply the advice they may have received, so it is important that they learn to weigh up the "evidence" and make their own informed decision as to the validity of such advice.    
    I hope you will let me know what you think of this latest reply, meanwhile
         Slan,
         Brendan          
        

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi,

Sorry for the long delay, i had been away for the weekend and i wanted to make sure i read an understood the articles i found before i replied. And to top it all off i just started my thesis.
I had read your reply to Alice before but actually i read it again now.
Actually i was a bit suprised by what i read in the articles on some points regarding the horses bumping you in the shoulder as being disrespectful. I mean i never let them go overboard and push me around but i always thought it was just a little demand for affection.
Like Sam likes to have her face rubbed after a ride. I don't let her if i'm doing stuff but after a ride i offer her by back for a rub. I don't know if i should stop that. If she likes it, its a reward isn't it?

I learnt a lot on body language thats gonna take a while to learn in practice! But now i have a place to start from rather than bumbling my way through.
I was rather pleased also to learn that i already did some of the things mentioned. Like offering the hand for them to smell, or letting them smell foregin things till they're happy with it. Which i always did with the dogs anyway so i automatically did it with the horses.

As regards what i think the correct interpretation of the new horse smelling me, well when you first asked i got a little suspicous (not at you, but rather my natural reaction to the situation) becasue i began to wonder if what i had taken as 'friendliness' was a brass invasion of my space. Because its true she DID invade my space but she took such a keen interest in sniffing me, and after reading on how horses greet each other, that i'm still inclined to believe she was taking an interest in me and perhaps greeting me. What do you think?

With the saddle cloth, i'm not too sure. The only thing i could think of really was to disaccociate (i'm sorry, i know i spelt that horribly wrong) the sadle cloth from the saddle. I am assuming she reacts to it because she knows the saddle will follow. So inorder to break that connection i could, i think, change my timing? For example put on her saddle cloth, then say do her feet or leave her and then put on the saddle.

I rode sam yesterday, and i haven't got round to finding an elbow guard yet so i'm still standing out of range (but actually not as far back as i usually stand). But i was thinking about what you said about instant negative responses and this time i told her off with a smack on her shoulder as soon as i could see her about to swing her head round rather than after she snapped. I took her by suprise, she wasn't expecting to be told off that hard, for that 'little'. She stood pretty quietly (or more like sullenly, she was in a pretty bad mood). Unfortunately we were in a rush and although i left the girth loose in the box i didn't get a chance to tighten it gradually until we went out but tightened it all in one go outside while my instructor held her reins to restrict her head, which got quite a strong reaction out of her. :/

Oh, and remembered something else i do sometimes when she's in a really bad mood (which she was yesterday, and i did it without thinking). If i walk into her stall with the saddle and i see her already pulling back her ears and twisting her head while i'm still three feet away from her, the first thing i do (aside from verbally warning her)is bringing the saddle up to her side and 'pocking' her in the side with it. And i leave it there till she shuts up. I started doing thins because i learnt that she takes advantage of the moment you're putting the saddle on her back to catch you out. And it would obviously get the biggest reaction out of me in the beggining becasue i couldn't see what she was doing for those split seconds where the saddle obscured her face from view. Generally if i poke her with the saddle first and tell her off for reacting to it, when i put the saddle on her, even if i do still get a reaction, it usually more subdued.

And actually i have another question now. Now that its summer and the flies have started making a nuisance of themselves the horses are obvioulsy all alot more fidgetty, trying to get the flies off them. Would you let a horse react to a fly when you are riding it? I mean in understand that they are uncomfortable and would instinctively loosen the rein so they can reach the fly, but sometimes when its on their front leg, this has them stopping and swinging their head down to bite at their leg. Is it a bad habit to let them? Or is it cruelly restricting to stop them?

Look forward to hearing from you
And sorry again for the delay

Lisa

Answer
      Hi Lisa,
    Great to hear from you again, as I was afraid that I had offended you in some way. Could I return for a moment to the matter of "arm protection" as I think I have a better solution than my earlier suggestion. I don't know if you are familiar with the "shin guards" that soccer players wear, but I had a look at some of them in a shop, in Dublin, last week, and I think one of them could fit the bill, (they come in different sizes too, which might be helpful). I am concious of the fact that you might not want to bother going down this particular road, so perhaps you could let me know, as there are a few more things I could say on the matter.
    Now to move on, could I ask a few questions about the articles you read. In your (hopefully newfound capacity as a horse), did they seem logical, and the same question in relation to your  former existence, as a human, and did you learn anything of significance?
    You mentioned that you were surprised to read that a horse bumping into you was showing disrespect, but if you were the dominant one in a herd, would a subordinate do that, and would you allow it? One of the difficult issues you are going to have to address is that of, how strict or lenient you going to be. Personally I would favour being somewhere in the middle (as I dislike extremes), but ultimately it will be your personal decision.
     O.k. I'll leave the overall strategy for the moment, and try to move on to the tactical. If I correctly remember your initial question, this was a problem for you. Horses are dreadful chatterboxes. They are constantly telling us things through their body language. I believe the first step for us is to watch i.e. "listen", then to try to interpret. If you manage these first two reasonably successfully, your next hurdle is how to reply. In my case, if there appears to be a question of whether I should allow a particular action, or stamp it out, then I try (as best I can), to "forsee" the likely results of both options, then (hopefully) choose the best one. I would like to "flesh out" what I have just said, but I feel the need to digress for a moment. A question that occurred to me fairly recently was whether or not horses were ambitious, and my initial was "certainly not", but on reflection I realised that in respect of their position in the hirearchy they are. Now to try to draw the "strings" together, if a horse that considers you to be only slightly above it in the pecking order, gives you a slight nudge, and you don't react negatively, then might it gradually escalate these nudges until it is almost knocking you off your feet? I don't know, for sure, if such a scenario would occur, but for the moment I would prefer to nip that sort of behaviour "in the bud".
    To move on to the issues raised by the "new" horse, your initial query was about how she behaved and how you should react, and I think I made it pretty clear that I thought this was a significant issue. So, as far as I am concerned this animal has a "history" of invading your space, and also, of displaying aggressive tendencies in your vicinity. Now I know that her recent "invasion" was all done in a "lovey dovey" way, but the kernel of the matter is, that it was all done on her terms. How much input have you had into the interaction between the two of you thus far?
    Sorry Lisa I'm not going to be able to get to Sam this time round, but I really would like to hear your reaction to this present mail, and hope to address the other matters next time.
         Best of luck,
         Slan,
         Brendan
         P.s. There were a couple of things I meant to say, but I forgot. It occurred to me that I may have painted a picture of a pretty large mountain, that you would have to climb, but actually it's relatively simple. I also wondered if you liked being challenged to try to find your own answers, or would prefer just a more straightforward response.