Kicking out

Question
QUESTION: Hi,

My 17 year old Quarter horse has recently started kicking out while I ride him. At first we thought he had some pain in his stomach from gas. But his behaviour has continued. And he has had no sign of gas pain.  

He has only ever kicked out before at other horses when they come to close to him while riding. But he has only done that maybe twice.

Now he kicks out most of the time when i ride. But so far its only been during riding lessons with other horses. He even does it when a another horse isn't even close by.

I rode him with no other horses one day and he was fine. But he has never reacted that agressively before towards other horses. On the ground he is fine too, except for lately when i have been doing up his girth, he has been pawing a little more than usual. But this behaviour started before the kicking out.

I also recently purchased a new saddle, but if thats whats bugging him than wouldn't he have kicked out that day when i rode him alone?

I'm very puzzled, it could be so many things, but i'm not sure what.

He also seems to me the kind of horse who likes to be in charge. He ceartanily likes to be the boss of most things. But he has never rebelled towards me like that when riding.

A couple months before the kicking out i noticed that, only somtimes, before coming to a jump he would bring his head around slitely and sort of bit the air.

My horse doesn't always like when i put my leg on, because he is sometimes sensitive to touch, but he has only ever reacted to that with putting his ears back.

When he kicks he usually starts by putting his head up slitely and putting his ears back. Than his stride faulteres and than he kicks toward the inside. When he does that I push him forward and he will usually stop for a while. And he does not do it consitantly. Sometimes he'll kick out, than stop, than ten minutes later do it again. Other times he'll kick out, and than a couple seconds later do it again. He has being kicking out for about month i believe.

Please let me know if you would like any other information about my situation. Although i've pretty much told you almost everything.

I would be very pleased if you could reply back very soon. What my horse is dong is dicrouraging me very much, and i don't know what to do.


ANSWER: Erica,

Get rid of the saddle, it doesn't fit him.  From what you've written I would guess that the previous saddle you used also did not fit him but wasn't as poor a fit as this new saddle.  Poor guy, he's been putting up with a lot of pain/discomfort but still trying to do what you ask.  

Horses don't "just do things".  There's always a reason behind the behavior.  They are much more transparent than humans. You need to find a saddle that really, really fits him. I suspect his back is sore and he may also have some mis-aligned vertebrae in his back too.  

He's a QH and they can be tough to fit if they have low, muscular withers.  Saddles for horses have similar fit requirements that shoes for us do.  If you have a pair of shoes that is too tight and make your feet hurt to wear them, let alone work carrying weights around you're not going to want to wear them!  
His actions more indicate a saddle that is too narrow rather than other fitting issues.  And, since he's 17, his back will have changed shape from what it was say 5 yrs. ago when he was 12.  It may have started to drop somewhat behind the withers and that issue has to be addressed too.  

If you cannot take him to a shop to get him fitted then you'll need to get some idea of what his shape is to take with you.  Get some bendable wire, like old coathanger wire and mold one piece over his back just behind his withers, where the front of the saddle tree should sit.  Make it a piece about 18" long so you can get his shape down past where his shoulder ends.  Mold another piece over his back where the cantle of the saddle would be, the back of the saddle tree.  Measure the distance between the 2 points so you will know where to fit the wires under the saddle you are considering.  They should fit easily, a little loosely, to take into consideration the width of the saddle pad too.  Then, if possible, take the saddle home and put it on him with an appropriate pad.  Just like shoes, if the saddle fits with a thinner pad because a thick pad will only be like putting on heavy socks with shoes that are meant to be worn with lightweight socks or stockings.  It'll make the saddle too tight.  If possible the pad should be white or very light colored.  If the pad you are planning on using is dark then put a thin piece of white material, a piece of sheet works well, on his back first then the pad.  Notice how he behaves when you get on and walk him around.  If he's not happy then don't go further.  If he seems happy then work him hard enough and long enough to get him sweating well under the saddle.  Stop, get off and take the saddle and pad off.  Look at his back.  Any dry spots?  Areas where the hair looks ruffled or broken? Then look at the pad.  There should be a perfect imprint of the saddle on the pad that is even all over as if it was printed on.  If the imprint is not even, the areas that are either darker and wetter or dry when all around is soaked, indicate pressure.  If there are pressure points both in the front and back then the saddle is "bridging" on his back, no weight is being distributed to the middle of the saddle, not utilizing the whole weight distributing function of the tree.

Minor adjustments can be made to English-style saddles by adjusting the flocking in the panels.  Especially with saddles that have "bridging" problems because of the back dropping in older horses adding flocking can solve the problem.  Western-style saddles are more difficult.  The tree just has to fit the horse.  Some minor adjustments can be made with shims, but they have to be done by someone who knows how.  If the tree is just a little wide then adding a little more padding works.  

If the saddle passes the above tests than it probably fits pretty well.  In the meantime I would also check out his back.  Take your thumb and forefinger and place them on either side of his spine.  If your hand isn't big enough you'll have to use both hands.  You want the tips of your fingers to be about 2-3" from the middle of his spine.  Press down hard enough to indent the skin and slowly slide your fingers toward his hindquarter on his back.  Horses with really sore backs can react rather violently to this test so watch his body language carefully.  Note where he's ouchy or tries to drop away from your fingers (that's a really sore horse when they do that).  

To make sure that I didn't have any other issues affecting my fitting another saddle to the horse I would get his back checked out by and equine chiropractor and, if at all possible, get him worked on by a massage therapist.  He sounds like a nice, older gent and I think will be happy to do whatever work you ask of him.  He shouldn't have any issues with you using your leg once his back isn't bothering him anymore.  When you use your leg he has to pick up his back and that's not something he can easily do right now.  

Find a saddle that fits him, and you, and you can both have many more good rides.  

Lyn


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I see what your saying, it is one of my fears that it is his saddle that is bugging him since i just bought it because my old saddle was getting very old.

Even though he never kicked when i had his old saddle, his back does not seem sore with the new one. And i've had the new saddle since before Chritmas and it has never caused any discomort for my horse until now. (assuming that it is his saddle)

The thing is, since it is winter time, i have nowhere to ride. Except when I have my once weekly lesson. This problem has been accuring for about a month or so. Making it about 4 times my horse has kicked out while riding him.

And one week, my instructor told me the day of my lesson that i could come the next day and ride to see how he is.
So the next day i went to ride and my horse was fine. He didn't even kick out once. If his saddle was bugging him than wouldn't he have kicked out than to show discomfort?

Thank you for your awnser, it is much appreciated to have many views on the cause of his problem.

Erica

ANSWER: Erica,

He's still reacting as if the saddle bothers him.  He may only do it when he's feeling really fresh which is why he didn't the 2nd day when you rode him.  I sympathize with you on winter and being unable to ride.  One thing I will ask is have you reduced his feed since he's only getting used once a week?  He may well have put on some weight so the saddle is now a little tight.  For one you may want to decrease the amount of grain he's getting and up his hay ration so that he's not so cheerful when you go to ride.  Remember, grain is one of those things that should be fed when the amount of work the horse is being asked to do cannot be met with only forage or you cannot feed enough forage to meet his caloric requirements.  Forage can give him all the fuel requirements his body needs without the "sugar high" that come from grain concentrates which are generally high in carbohydrates.  Just like people who continue eating as if it were summer and the are active but put on weight in the winter time without changing their eating habits.  

I would suggest you give him the test I outlined before with the saddle pad/white cloth to see how this saddle is really fitting him.  It may give you a clue as to whether the saddle is causing him any problems.  You probably aren't riding him for a long enough period of time to make his back very sore right now if he doesn't react to the finger pressure test. Just like your feet quit hurting if you take off shoes that are too tight after a short period of time. Checking out the saddle pad and looking closely at his back immediately after you take off the saddle may give you clues to what's going on with him.  

And one last thought is that since he's only being ridden once a week and only for a lesson then he may just be feeling awfully good.  I've jokingly told people that if my horse doesn't want to uncork a couple of crowhops in cold weather then I need to take her temperature and make sure she's feeling OK.  It's not really unusual for a horse to let off a little steam in cold weather although older horses are usually well enough mannered not to do it.  That sort of behavior is generally relegated to youngsters.  If that's the case then reducing his grain ration may help.  

You're going to have to figure out what is going on here and address it accordingly.  If it's the saddle then see what you will have to do to correct it.  Otherwise you have an attitude that needs to be adjusted.  Things like this are always interesting to figure out and I always learn a lot in the process.  Let me know how this comes out, please.  

Good luck.

Lyn

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: No I haven't reduced his feed, but that might be a good idea since he is normally quite fresh when I ride him. I will also see if its that saddle that is bothering him. Anything I can do to icelate the problem is worth a shot.

And you know how you said that cowkicking in young horses is more normal than with older horses? Well I should tell you that my horse, isn't quite normal! He has always acted somewhat young and foolish and he aslo has quite a bit of energy for an older horse. I like to call him the energizer bunny! Because I don't think i've ever seen him run out of energy! In fact, it seems the more he works in a lesson, the faster he becomes! Weird eh? But to tell the truth, I don't know exactly how old he is. Because his old owners cannot find his papers! All I know is that he is around 17 years old, or so they think. He's been owned by many people who have had him for multiple years, so with that being said I assume that he is around that age.


Thanks for your advice, and I will certainly let you know how its turns out.

Erica

Answer
Erica,

Sorry to be getting back to you so late, been tied up with doing my taxes!  Anyhow, whoever does his teeth should be able to tell you how old he is.  At least I hope you are getting his teeth done once a year, all horses need that.  And yeah, I've got several old horses who don't know that they are old either!  My endurance mare is 17 this year and is still a handful when she wants to be.  He may get stronger as the lesson goes on because he gets warmed up.

Keep me posted on how things go with him.

Lyn