Foiled again - too many follow ups 2

Question
QUESTION: Hi
Regarding you ps first, i think direct replied are easier, but your challenge in a sense almost worked better because it got me to go looking and reading. So i think, whilst i prefer direct replies, if you feel that there's an issue that you think needs further reading to really understand I'd appreciate if you'd send me back searching :)

Thinking back to my short experience with the horses i think one of my main problems and the main reasons why i had to step back and try find out more about them is the revelation that HORSES ARE NOT DOGS!
I know that must sound insane but i am so used to the way a dog's mind works that i find it hard do disassociate animals that have strong bonds with people, from dogs. And i think we relate more easily to dogs because we're both predators rather than prey.

I think i can SEE the body language, and recognise that it is saying SOMETHING, but i get instinctive reactions, which i then ignore because i start doubting myself, but then doubt myself again because if its an instictive reaction it must come from SOMEWHERE.

As regards the arm protection, i'm willing to give it a go, but if you have other suggestions as well i'd like to hear them. Protective guards are usually quite expensive, i tried asking around my cousins who used to play football but they've long gotten rid of them. Also my instructor is a very relaxed and open minded person but she's also very proud and i'm not sure how she'd take to me waliking in to tack up sam with my arm strapped up for world war three.

Oh! and i forgot to ask last time. One article i read went into quite a lot of detail on working in the round-pen. Which was enlightening because i've seen it done on tv but had no idea to the depth of the body language done by the person. One thing the article said was the person's position in relation to the horse's balance point (about the girth) controls the movement of the horse. I wondered if my standing behind the girth when i tighten the girth outside, is what encourages her to move forward and not stand for it?

I think personal space is going to be a hard issue for me to overcome also. Again its because of the dogs. In my family, mum's the top dog, but i'm the one who has the closest relationship with the dogs, mainly because of all the physical contact. They come up and lean on me, i bump them with my leg when i walk by. There is always some level of physical contact and its all bonding and playful.
So my natural reaction to being bumped on the shoulder is the same as with the dogs bumping into my legs. I lean back into it and get affectionate.

The articles, and one in particular where very enlightneing to me as a human. As regards horse logic, i'm not sure i yet have a capacity as a horse, i'm still stuck somewhere between human and dog. I did learn a lot on general ques, such as the signs of a relaxed horse and such like. THe site was similar to this, where people ask an expert, but she also had a list of articles you can read, and videos, though i didn't watch any yet.

As regards the shoulder bumping, what does it actually mean? Its something i still haven't figured out.
Actually i'd like your opinion on a situation, or more rather my interpretation of it. last time i was holding sam and the new one by the reins waiting. They were face to face. The new kept trying to sniff sam and she sniffed back but when she got too close to sam's face, sam lifted her head and jerked away. Is sam 'shying away' and telling the other one she's uncomfortable. Or is she sort of telling her off, as in 'no, you're not allowed to do that'?
Also when i was holding them they both seemed to get bored. Sam, as per usual lowered her head to my shoulder height (as in her eyes level with my shoulder) and bumped me slightly. I have a habit of talking to her when she does this. SHe didn;t really do anything else.
The other one (remember, they're face to face and i'm between their heads) also lowered her head and bumped me. I pushed her off when she did it again. And when she tried again i twitched her rein. It seems then she started paying closer attention to me. I had to turn her around to clear the rode, so she was more near sam. At this point she didn't want to stand still anymore and took a few steps forward. I stopped her, and usually i would have left it at that, but one of the articles mentioned that horses are very aware of where their feet are and even if it was a few paces she knows she got closer to where she wanted to go. So this time i forced her back. She did it about three times, then looked at me and the fourth time, when i tried to stop her she swung her bum around so that her head was where i was holding it but her body was now about 150 degrees from where i told her to stay.
She's basically telling me she's in charge right?

Sorry, i have to go now, or i'll be late. I don't know if i answered evrything, but look forward to hearing from you.

Lisa

ANSWER:        Hi Lisa,
    Actually, my purpose in issuing challenges was, not to send you searching, but rather to get you to rely more on your own resources. I believe that you have a sizeable bank of knowledge built up, but you lack the confidence to believe in your own judgement.
     Now, I also suspect that your experience with dogs,is hindering your progress in the "horsey" realm. I have a theory about dogs, that would be far too long to go into here, but it is that they are all basically juvenile wolves, who have lost the ability to mature mentally and emotionally as their ancestors would have (because of inbreeding). This has not happened with horses, who, although domesticated, retain all the instincts of their wild forebearers. If my theory is even partially correct it could mean that your attitude to, and behaviour towards both species, should be significantly different. To try to put this argument in it's starkest form, what you (quite legitimately) may interpret as affectionate behaviour from a wolf "cub", could, and almost certainly, would have a vastly different meaning if mimicked by an essentially "wild" creature, which, incidentally could weigh 1/2 a ton.
    I think that nearly all experts would agree that, in the horse world, personal space is a huge issue, and that he who yields his space to a competitor also yields the initiative. Unfortunately I don't have a clear picture of what exactly ensued between Sam, the new horse, and you, but it would appear that in the initial contact Sam lost out. If I am reading your account accurately, it seems that Sam withdrew when the new animal got too close, therefore "newbie" won. The situation is complicated by the the fact that there are 3 entities involved,but I gather that the next thing of note was that Sam bumped you. A possible explanation ( and I would emphasize possible) is that Sam, having accepted that Newbie was the dominant one, felt uncomfortable being so close, and decided to "ask" you to move so that she could do likewise. I used the word "ask" advisedly, because she only bumped you slightly, and this could be because she is unsure of her status in relation to you, and didn't want to risk making a demand. As regards "newbies" bumping it could be that having "won" the first round against Sam, she wanted to go on to confirm her status, and you were interfering, so she decided to try to move you. Please bear in mind that "definites", in regards to animal behaviour are pretty rare, "probables" are fairly rare, and "possibles" are scattered everywhere. Everything I have said in this paragraph is firmly rooted in the "possible camp". Anyway it boils down to the fact that if you were the dominant one, then Sam's fears (if such they were), should have been assuaged, and "newbie's desires should have subsided in the realization that she was not going to get any change out of you.
    Once again you have raised a large number of interesting questions that  unfortunately I am not going to be able to get round to. I am desperately slow at this process, and it takes me an age to deal with every issue you raise. THIS is not a complaint, as I actually enjoy grappling with the questions you throw at me. I only mention it so that you will understand why I am gradually falling a bit behind in my answers.
    In regard to the elbow protection, I fully appreciate your position, and in fact it was in my mind, when I suggested that you might not want to go down that particular road. However it might prove useful in the future.
    You mentioned the horses "balance point", and this is where I mount my "high horse". I consider myself to be an authority on this matter, and it is not at the girth, it is at the shoulder. Sorry! I'll climb down from the pulpit now. This can be quite an important issue but I don't believe that this comes into play when you are girthing Sam. Whilst horses can and do move backwards and sideways if the occasion demands, their first inclination is always to go forward. So the challenge for you is still the one of demonstrating to her that the procedure will involve little or no discomfort.
    I am going to have to leave it at that for the moment, but I hope that I have given you some more food for thought. Incidentally I don't consider what you said in relation to horses v. dogs as being in any way insane, and I hope that my reply might confirm that,
    So I'll wish you well and look forward to hearing your reaction.
       Slan,
         Brendan          

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi,

I think that thinking of horses as tamed wild animals rather than domestic pets will help my confusion in dealing with them sometimes. To be honest i felt quite hypocrytical sometimes in dealing with them, because i felt forced to act in a manner i would never consider necessary or acceptable with dogs.

I think now one of the major things i'll try to work on is my relation with the newbie, and refusing her dominant attitude, because though i'm keen to start riding her i'm not comfortable doing it when i know she won't listen to me.

As regards the shoulder bumping, do you think that it is a way to get my attention?

ALso i've ordered a book called equine behavior (i think) by Daniel mills, which one of the sites recomended. I'm hoping it will give me a better grasp of a horses mind.

Look forward to hearing from you

Lisa

ANSWER:        Hi Lisa,
    I have had a bit of difficulty understanding your position precisely up 'til this, but I think I may have got it clear at last. I would like to summarise what I imagine you are thinking, and then you could let me know where I am right or wrong.
    With regard to feeling hypocritical, I am assuming that is because you felt you should be more protective of your own space, and more "defensive", when dealing with horses than with dogs, but that this somehow went against your natural instincts. Now, in relation to Newbies recent approach to you, I am making a further assumption that you found that emotionally gratifying in some way (entirely understandable), and that you felt almost compelled to react in like manner. Please correct me if any of the above is wide of the mark. You have already acknowledged the fact that horses are not dogs, so I don't see any need to feel guilty about applying different criteria in dealing with them. Horses are "hardwired" to constantly try to establish who is "top dog", so once you continue to emphasise that you are that entity, there is no reason that you cannot go on to have quite an affectionate relationship with them.
    I have been sitting here for some time, thinking back over some of the things I have said, and it occurs to me that much of it may appear "woolly" and vague, but I believe that is unavoidable. To take the example of the shoulder bumping, I think we would both agree that, that is an invasion of space, but the immediate consideration is "why". My first reaction would be to reprimand mildly (verbal), then try to see if there was some justification for the action. If I could find one e.g. the horse feeling "trapped", then I would allow 10secs for the reprimand to sink in, but then let it change its position slightly. If I could find no justification, I would wait for a repeat, then reprimand more severely the next time. I suppose what I am really saying is that there are so many variables to be weighed up in most examples of undesirable behaviour that it makes it impossible to give clear, concise, definitive answers.   
    I would just like to return to one of the issue you raised earlier, and that is the matter of a horse stopping because of flies. My attitude is that horses have mainly been used as "work" animals throughout history (farm,war,transportation,competition etc.), and while I acknowledge that the ethics involved in any one one of these useages is highly questionable, the fact remains that in any one of them, the issue of stopping to remove a fly would not be tolerated.In any case I believe that if a horse is properly focused on it's "work", then it would not even notice the presence of a fly.
    Well, there you have my latest thoughts, looking forward to hearing yours.
         Slan,
         Brendan          
         
         

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi,

I think you're overall correct about me, or rather my mental block that causes me to hesitate. Its hard to switch over between the two attitudes. I've been trying to think about and understand things from a horse's perspective because i think without that understanding, or at least some understanding i'll just keep focusing on how i will react rather than on the horse's behaviour.

I've also been trying to think of ways i can apply what i've learned. I won't have the possibility to do any round pen excercises with the horses and as its a riding school and its not my horse we don't do any ground work (as in from the ground). The only interaction i have with them off the saddle is in their boxes or on the lead when taking them to a competition.

Remembering your first reply, about teaching newbie to give way to my space, Do you think i could start in the box, or would the restricted space make it dangerous. If understands that i'm asserting myself and decides to do likewise, do you think i'll be putting myself in danger inside a 5ft x 5ft box?

Lisa

Answer
      Hi Lisa,
    There once was a time, when my interaction with horses was similar to yours nowadays, i.e. dealing with other peoples animals in their surroundings. That was many years ago, and at the time, I was operating in what I would now call the old traditional way. I only mention this to try to emphasize that, while I have a pretty good understanding of "where you are at", I can't really fully transport myself back to that time, and "unknown" what I now know.
    Bearing that in mind I am going to suggest some more things that may be wrong, but sure if they are, just discount them (I suspect a couple of irishisms surfaced there). I can't help wondering if there is a degree of nervousness inherent in your approach to the horses. the reason I raise this matter is because of the last sentence in your first paragraph. I get a sense that the question, I am about to ask could appear deprecatory, but I hope that you can trust me enough, to know that this is not the intention. You mention "focusing on how I will react, rather than the horses behaviour". To me the logical sequence is that(a) you encounter a horse, (b) you behave your way, and the horse behaves his (or her way), (c) if the behaviour of said horse is unacceptable to you, then you react accordingly. To focus on your reaction, in advance of knowing how the animal is going to behave, seems to indicate a defence mechanism based to greater or lesser degree on fear.
    I hope the foregoing doesn't appear harsh, but it was something that struck me quite forcibly, when I read that paragraph.
    As regards your second paragraph, I appreciate that your opportunities are very limited, but at least you can practice your body language. I trust that you have a pretty good idea of the human version of a dominant attitude, and for the moment I would approach all your equine contacts in that manner(this could be modified over time). Watch carefully for any sign of submission on their part, and if you get it, then you respond in like manner. Do you know something, it actually like a dance? You approach like a Prussian officer (hope I am not being racist here), the object of your desire courtesies( in horsy terms displays some element of submission), you bow (in recognition of the submission), then you invite them to join you in whatever grand adventure you have planned(at least I hope it is some form of a grand adventure)
    Now to your final paragraph. I have to be very carful not to say anything that could put you in danger. The main problem I see here is that the horse could feel trapped because of lack of space, and that could evoke an "explosion". You could still insist on the horse moving out of your space, but that movement could be minute, even down to a shift of weight away from you ,as opposed to an actual step. What I am trying to illustrate here is, that in such a confined space, even the smallest movement assumes the importance of a much more significant one in a a larger environment.
    Once again I hope that all this makes sense to you, and I look forward with increasing anticipation to your next response.
         Slan,
         Brendan