Another health question about Groucho

Question
Okay. Groucho, the poor little guy, is probably beginning to feel like a lab rat. He has been showing respiratory distress for months, Baytril has done very little or nothing at all, it's hard to tell. Now he is on what I believe to be some form of Lasix (it's a liquid called furosemide) for possible congestive heart failure. He gets .2ml 2 times a day. I'm a little concerned because it's a diuretic and I don't want his illness to progress as a result. He seemed perkier last night after the first dose but is a little groggy today and fluffy. It's just so hard to tell how they are really feeling and I know that these meds can take some time to adjust to. It's just so scary how quickly their health  can deteriorate. I'm afraid I should have asked for enalapril atenolol and a beta blocker.

This is such a frustrating time so I'd like to hear any input on meds for treating congestive heart failure effectively, the use of lasix etc. Also do I continue using the Baytril or other anti biotics  even if I haven't seen any improvement?

Thanks so much for your continued help.
Hannah

Answer
Hi Hannah

Why does the vet feel he has CHF? Because of ongoing respiratory problems?  He can be on lasix safely for a day or two or longer as long as he is drinking water.  
One thing about vets and baytril: Its almost like they have a one track mind. Just because the rat displays respiratory infection doesn't mean its always from mycoplasmosis, which baytril and doxycycline combo seem to be the most effective treatment since myco is an organism without a cell wall and together with doxy, baytril has successfully treated myco.  The problem? Myco is relentless and once the rat has an outbreak it needs to be treated for a full 30 days. If not, myco comes back, fun guns, stronger than ever, and begins leaving blisters and scarring of the delicate lung tissues. Mycoplasmosis is the same bacteria that causes TB in humans, but don't worry, its not the exact same strain (there are many strains of mycoplasmosis) but still it does cause the same problems to the lungs almost like TB does to humans. Also we cannot catch it so I figured I would toss that in before anyone that is reading this freaks out.  :-0  EEP!
This rat may very well have a secondary infection and would benefit with something other than just baytril.
I would suggest he stay in the hospital for a few days and get injections of amakacin *at least 2 to 3 days of injections) and also have the medications nebulized as well...this way they will get into his lungs PRONTO...along with baytril and doxycycline while they keep him in oxygen and start him on enalapril.  Has any X-rays been taken? How old is the rat, I don't recall discussing him.

Anyhow, your rat can very well have chronic lung disease now on top of heart disease because they often go hand in hand.

One good drug to use for heart disease is enalapril. As you had mentioned.It will not hurt at all even if the rat doesn't have a heart condition. Its more of a very safe, benign medication used by vets as a diagnostic tool so to speak. If after a week on it the rat improves, thats great, move on to figure out more about what type of heart problem the rat has, but if there is no response to the enalapril, that pretty much can help the vet decide which route to take next.  I would use atenolol, which is a beta blocker, only after you see if he responds to enalapril unless symptoms suggest he indeed has heart disease. It wont really hurt to use it but I would hold off and see how he responds first.

Valium in liquid form is also something being used by many exotic vets that are not scared to prescribe a controlled substance, which many are very skeptical to prescribe even a narcotic pain medication to be sent home when the animal has surgery and instead is given the ever so safe NSAID, metacam, which doesn't really help pain such as post op spay or neuter or a deep tumor incision. Some vets prefer to keep the rat at the clinic while treating them with narcotics for pain to avoid conflicts with the good ole DEA. ::sighs:: I guess it takes a bit of effort and energy to tell them WHY a rodent is taking valium twice a day, but a good vet will document it and just tell them it is what it is!!
Anyhow, (sorry for getting on my soap box!  LOL!!) liquid valium given in the absolute lowest dose to avoid sedation works fantastic for rats with any type of anxiety, especially respiratory related.  Humans with COPD, even end stage, benefit greatly from valium. It helps calm them down thus in turn, respiration are lowered and they seem to have a much easier time breathing the less anxious they are.
I came across this by chance one day about a year ago. I had a rat with severe COPD in total panic. He was on albuterol and I believe that helped speed his heart rate up (which it does) and in turn he started to have panic attacks.  My grandmother had been staying with us and she was on valium.  I took her tablet, crushed it, divided it into the proper dose and gave it to my rat mixed with ice cream. In 20 minutes, like magic, he had totally chilled, breathing easier, no more gasping and panic attacks.
I told the vet who was totally stunned, maybe at my bravery and possibly stupidity?? I don't know, but what I know is, he now keeps it on hand and gives it to my rats whenever I suggest it is needed.
I have come to find that over the past few months other vets are starting to use this as well on rats but it is a tough thing to sell an already uptight vet who is reluctant to prescribe out of the norm.  

WOW I didn't realize how much I typed.  Hope your still with me here. I need to do a serious spell checker now since I have been typing a mile a minute without looking up.

Hope this helped some...I had so much to say and just went on and on.  I have had my own rats with heart and lung disease and also have seen it alot in the clinic.
How are his extremities?  Any cyanosis noticed (blue or white feet) or really cold limbs?   I don't like his puffy fur at all. Any excessive porphryin?  I don't take much stock in porph though. I have seen rats die without a drop of it and have seen healthy rats ooze it for their entire 3 years of life. The harderian gland has its own mind.

Anyhow, hope I helped some....let me know how it all goes.

Sandra