Moving Mommies and Babies home...

Question
Hi Tamarah!

I don't know if you remember me from my Sugarplum questions, but I have another small situation I could really use an opinion on. (Also, I thank you so much for your help on Sugarplum, but unfortunately she had a miscarriage at 12 days, and who knows why, but anyhow, we're moving her back to her friends slowly).

Anyhow, long story short, there's a pet shop down the street called We Love Pets, and they pretty much abuse their mice. They live in small areas, breed with their siblings in one tiny cage at less than 2 months old, and they have mothers with a huge litter behind their front desk with a second litter on the way. This angers me like no tomorrow, and because we're getting a grant next month (or sometime like that) for a separate need we decided to set about $350 aside and buy all their mice from both stores. Non pregnant babies, males, pregnant babies, mothers and their pinkies. I would get all their rats too, but unfortunately, I don't get along with rats. I love them, but they're always bored no matter what I do. xP

Well, anyway, since we're doing this, I need help on one thing--moving the mommies and pinkies. I'm not sure which idea is best, but I'll put both out there:

We were going to buy 2 aquariums (and this is our first remedy) for each pair of pregnant does and their babies at each store. When we arrived, we'd already have fresh bedding in the tank, insulation, covers for the sides and a screen for the top so no one does anything strange. No water for now; we were nervous a baby could get moved and water could get on it. We'd only have food available and a hide-away that would be pre-cleaned or one they're already using. Then we'd wait for the mom (or moms) to move across the cage, or lure them, and quietly put a cardboard divider between her and the babies. After doing that we'd take a clean plastic spoon with gloved hands, rub everything in the bedding, and move the babies to the new area along with some of the old bedding using a small clean dustpan. Once we accomplished that, we'd carefully remove the doe(s) and put them with their children and put the hideaway over them, then put the screen on and let them be. (We'd also drive slow to make them more comfortable; the drive is less than a mile, too.)

Whew, ok, when we were thinking that, we knew we could just buy the container they were in, BUT--their containers there are very, very dirty (and trust me, I've complained loudly), and I can't go in there and change what they have after knowing the moms for less than an hour or 2. She'd have to be way past tolerant for that, of course... also, their prices are outrageous. One tank is about $25 there, plus everything inside the home (they wouldn't let you take it out). They really are jackasses, but I love my mice too much. ^^

Sorry for rambling, and thank you for any help at all... I just really don't want it to end up as her killing them. On top of all that, the does are usually pregnant like I said above and are still raising one litter. There are also usually 2 does in the cage, but the second doe is pregnant most of the time too. And on top of THAT, the litters together are about 17+ babies!!

We have a plan for everyone else including expecting mothers too, it's just the moms that already have living born babies.

No matter how many we end up with, and the high death rate that would occur in about 2 years, they all deserve a happy life. No pinky is gonna be fed to an Oscar fish on my watch.

Thanks a million,
Lydia & the meecies

Answer
Hi Lydia,

There is a lot of information here that I need to give you, but I believe there is a better way than purchasing all the mice to handle this situation.  Let me explain why, because I do have their best interest in mind, and I don't want you to think otherwise!

First of all, the amount of space you would need for this endeavor would be huge.  I am not sure how many mice we're talking about here, but if it's from two stores, and it sounds like quite a few litters, I'm just gonna take a guess at around 100 ($350/100 = $3.50/mouse?).  If you had 100 mice, you would need anywhere from 50-80 cages.  Every male needs to be housed alone (in pet shops it is short term - they overcrowd to reduce damage from fighting.  This is an intentional technique that results in no one mouse being picked on too heavily.  It is not a long term solution, so you'll need to put every male in his own home).  As the litters grow they will need to be separated by gender as well.  Sometimes males do get along with each other from the same litter, but as they sexually mature this can change overnight, so you would need backup cages for surprise separations or isolation.  Sometimes even being too close to another male mouse can stress out boys and cause problems - do you have the space?  Every cage would need to be changed every week at a minimum, which means hours of work per week and quite a bit in supplies.  Have you put thought into the feeding and bedding costs?  I can go through 25-50 pounds of mouse feed in a month, depending on how many I have and their eating habits, and 2 or so giant bags of aspen.  You will need water bottles in every cage, as well, *especially* for pregnant mommas, which will need hand washed every week and replaced as needed.  Then there is, of course, the vet costs.  If one of those mice is sick it can spread to every mouse in the colony, room, or even in your home depending on how well you can isolate them.  Treating that many mice for anything from mites to respiratory infections could become quite costly, especially if any vet visits are needed (like for pregnant or nursing mums who can't take many medications).

There's more than the cost, the space, and the materials - there is also the question of quality of life.  I know you want these guys to have better lives, but in order to provide that for them, you would need to play with each of them all the time, giving them individual attention.  This is required for more than just their happiness, as it allows you to catch problems, injuries, or illnesses before they become serious.  Will you have the time every day to play with that many mice?  Even half my estimate, 50 mice, would be quite a large amount of your time every day.  Young mice need to be socialized from a young age if they are to be pets, so it would be very important that you gave special attention to them and their needs.  Otherwise, you may wind up with 17+ mice who are not friendly and are difficult to care for or even to find homes for.

Lastly, have you checked with your local animal ordinances to make sure you are legally allowed to keep that many mice?  Some areas are pickier than others about having large quantities of small animals, even if they're not dogs and cats.

Quality of life is about far more than not being used as feeders.  Pet shops are meant to be temporary hold-overs for mice, and if you buy them all it's almost certain the pet shop will merely replace them.  Most shops purchase their stock from massive companies that supply pets to huge areas - many states at a time.  There are shops that do their own breeding, as you mentioned, but I have a feeling that if you buy the entire stock that the owner will simply place an order for more.  If you really feel the situation represents neglect/cruelty, your best way to rescue the mice is to notify the authorities.  Speak with the police, then go to your local animal organizations.  Chances are, if the situation is as bad as it sounds, they will already know about it and you will help in forcing the shop to improve care.


Wooh - and you thought YOU were rambling!  :)  Now that I've said all that, let me just say - different moms have different mommy styles.  If you can clearly tell different litters apart, then it's a little more safe to move them, but I would not move litters if they have merged together, as it may freak one or more of the moms out and cause pups to be eaten or rejected (usually this isn't as much of a problem once they get their fur in).  Even after the move, because it is so stressful, you may have problems with maternal aggression or rejection.  If you decide to buy them anyways, please keep some kitten milk replacement on hand for handfeeding.  http://www.rmca.org/Articles/orphans.htm

To move them, remove the mothers first.  Don't lift a mom off the nest, but if they've wandered off of it and don't seem like they are going to rush back you can lift them by the middle of their tails (this is a safe, brief method of lifting for non-pregnant, non-obese mice).  Be sure you don't mix up litters with mothers!  Once the adults are removed then you can move the pups by lifting the entire nest as a whole - rub your clean hands in the bedding (preferably after handling mom) and gently scoop up the nest in your hands.  This works best for pups that do not have fur yet - if they are furred you can pick them up individually by their bodies - be careful they don't hop out of your hands and hurt themselves!  Check through the bedding extremely carefully for anyone who may have strayed out of the nest.

For your second option, I'm not positive HOW dirty is dirty for the cages, but mothers frequently keep the nest area very clean.  The cage can be changed completely when the pups are about 2 weeks of age, and you can do partial changes in the meantime (scooping out the worst of the bedding - not the nest - and replacing it without moving any mice from the cage).  I don't think $25 per cage is a huge price, but I suppose it depends on the cage.  You will have much worse in the way of expenses, both immediate and longterm, if you decide to buy every last one of the mice!



Well, that's everything, but I can't stress enough to be sure you really are giving them a better life than where they would wind up.  Best of luck in whichever course of action you take!

-Tam