Size, Behavior, Etc.

Question
QUESTION: I have 2 red-eared sliders, which I purchased about 7 months apart.  Until the second slider showed up, which was a baby by the way, the oldest one was growing pretty quickly.  Now the oldest one seems to have stopped growing despite the fact that I feed them separately so they both can get their fill to eat.  I can't understand why that is.  Furthermore, I'm sure that the small turtle is the female and the large turtle is male because the male keeps thrusting something black in and out of its tail, which I can only assume is a penis. So how can that be when so many sources have told me that the female should be larger?  Also, my turtles have definitely been doing that mating dance where they touch each others faces.  How can this be when they are so young, barely over a year old?  Should I change my tank around so the female would have a place to lay eggs?  Right now I just have fake plants in there, not rocks, no sand (it makes it easier to clean).  Really my biggest concern is why the oldest turtle seems to have stopped growing.  I just want to make sure that she is okay.  I hope to hear from you soon.  Thank you.

ANSWER: You are describing classic stress/aggression behavior- mating-like behaviors that are inappropriate because of the size or sex of the turtles.

Mating behaviors would occur between male and female turtles that are over about 4" long or about 4 years old. Just FYI- the 'females are bigger' bit only applies of you know the two are the same age.

The most common reasons for stress-related aggression (which also often stops growth) is over-crowding. We would normally want to see about 10 gallons of water per inch of shell length. We can also see crowding when there is competition for good basking sites, hiding places, etc.

What I would recommend as a start is to review the basic habitat and diet at a good site like http://www.redearslider.com.

Now- even when everything else is perfect, some Red-ears are still bullies. We are not sure if bullies are made or born. Some bullies ease up as the space increases. Some bullies always seem to go out of their way to bully others. Even odder, size does not seem to determine which one is a bully.



Now, your descriptions do not include tank size, temps, lighting, basking areas, diet, etc. so I cannot help determine of that is OK or not, so the above site should help with that.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: The female turtle is 2 3/4" while the male is 3 1/2".  The male is younger so his growth has been astounding.  I guess I didn't think that the male was bullying the female because when I first put them together she was the aggressor and not him.  But I guess they can reverse the role.  I've now put them in separate tanks.  The female seems happy because she is no longer doing excessive basking.  The male, however, seems to be even more agitated and when he sees the female through the glass he keeps swimming against the glass thinking that he can get to her.

Regarding my tank specs. Both of them now have a 40 gallon tank holding 20 gallons of water.  The water is 84 degrees Fahrenheit and they have a UVA and UVB lamp.  They've always had separate basking areas and bushes.  They eat mainly turtle sticks, cat food pellets, and sometimes fish, which I supplement with calcium powder.  They have cuttle fish bone to gnaw on.  I've tried to feed them various vegetables but they don't eat them.  Do you have any suggestions as to how I can entice them to eat their veggies?

Now, I'd like some clarification about the "10 gallons of water per inch of shell length."  So if I have a 4" turtle I need 40 gallons of water and thus a 75 to 80 gallon tank (since I can't fill a 40 gallon tank all the way up to the top).  I have two turtles who will probably each grow to be bigger than 4", which means I will need more than 80 gallons of water.  I'm not aware of any commercially available tanks that can meet my turtles needs in the future.  Do you have any suggestions of where I can purchase one?

These turtles didn't ask to be my pets and I want to be sure that I'm doing my best to take care of them.

Answer
Glass-bashing: This may well be an attempt to get to her- glass confuses turtles- they cannot seem to understand why they cannot go forward when they get to it.

Veggies are not really important at this stage. Growing turtles eat mostly proteins to gain size, then, when they have mated and are getting big and slow, they shift to a more maintenance diet of veggies.

The 10 gallons per inch rule of thumb is just a guideline, but I am always surprised that people have a hard time with the idea that an animal that grows up in big spaces likes big spaces. After all, you rarely see wild Red-ears in small ponds.

Many keepers of larger or multiple turtles use things like kiddie pools, plastic stock tanks, really big plastic tubs, pre-formed indoor pond liners, etc. Many sites for Red-ears even go so far as to tell you to not bother if you don't have a big outdoor pond for the adults.

Your turtles will grow to about 9" for the male and 11" for the female, so the two adults would like about 200 gallons of water to play in.

The rule of thumb is NOT a law of nature- many keepers, even zoos, keep them in much smaller spaces, but you tend to see more soiling, more stress, more aggression, etc. in smaller habitats.

I have three Red-footed tortoises currently housed in a space designed for a total of about 1/2 of what I have. I see some aggression and lots of soiling but the health of the tortoises is not currently at any risk, so I keep them like that as I try to make a bigger habitat for them.

Heck, you only need 200 gallons in a few years. For what I have right now, I need a space that ideally would equal about 20'x10' (bigger than my kitchen or smaller bedroom) that I can keep at 85 degrees and 95% humidity all winter! Of course, I have about 7 years before they need all that space.

Sorry, I digress! Anyway- not having 10 gallons per is not the end of the universe and does not mean sudden painful death for your turtles- it is just really nice when we can do it.